In my last post on the topic of proper exercise form I asked several questions which I am very pleased to see people weigh in on.
My questions again are as follows:
- What is the guarantee “good form” will not hurts me?
- Are there rules for exercise form? If yes, who determines and enforces these rules?
- Assuming a movement is done in a way outside of what is considered proper based on popular opinion, does this mean our body does not change according to demand of the movement? Another way to say this is: does a less then “perfect form” produce “inferior results?” Do you know how to measure this?
Form = Safety?
Bob Peoples pulling 725.5 lbs at 185; 3.91 X body weight. His unorthodox style of deadlifting using a rounded thorasic spine was considered ugly at the time. Revolutionary now.
In many ways this is the foundation of the belief system.
Before I get in to this one, I want to post what I am seeing many exercise professionals proclaim exercise form to be.
From Wikipedia (the favorite source of all info) under a search of “Proper Exercise Form”
“Exercises or drills in sport have a recognized way of performing the movements that have two purposes:
Avoiding injury
By using proper or ‘good’ form, the risk of injury is lowered. A lack of proper form commonly results in injury or a lack of effect from the exercise being performed
Maximize benefit
Good form ensures that the movement only uses the main muscles, and avoids recruiting secondary muscles. As a muscle fatigues, the body attempts to compensate by recruiting other muscle groups and transferring force generation to non-fatigued units. This reduces the benefits in strength or size gain experienced by the muscles as they are not worked to failure.”
Do you agree with this?
I do not. I have highlighted my prime disagreements in bold. I will be touching back on these soon.
Next I will link an article from BodyBuilding.com
Proper exercise form by Jeremy Likness
This article examines form from a perspective of bio-mechanics. The author champions what we in The Movement bio-mechanics education system refer to as “Physics base form” in many of his examples.
This is indeed a useful tool for finding efficiency in movement, it is not the necessarily the best way to define what should or should not be exercise form. While we can turn to physics to locate the most efficient movement, physics alone does not always provide the most effective movement.
In this article the authors primary reasons for defining form in this fashion is increased safety, because this will equal a quality movement.
Quality movement?
Everyone in the industry uses this word in concept, but in application it is immediately clear their understanding of quality movement ranges from muddled to nonexistent.
I will come back to this word as well.
A final article I will post here.
“Correct Exercise Form” by Joshua Tapp
This article is posted on weight-lifting-complete.com. The only reason I found it is because it is a ranking site for the search term “proper exercise form” which means it is likely to be viewed and obeyed by someone who will not think for themselves.
There is nothing new posted here, I am linking it as an example of common wisdom in the weight lifting world.
Rather than focus on the wording, lets check the broad strokes again:
- There is a precise way to move in the gym, failing to do this will get you hurt
- If the lift is not done as such it did not count
- The goal of the movement is to fatigue the muscles
One of the things I personally appreciate here in this article is the rational “this guy is really strong so this is the proper form.”
I used to also say things like that, and being that Joshua and I do not know each other I do not know what he currently believes or teaches.
So instead I will talk about my belief on that topic. I was so certain for a long time the best form was whatever was being used by the strongest people. If you do not deadlift like Ed Coan you are fucking up. I was very certain of this.
What is wrong with that?
Well for one very few of us are built like Ed Coan. I am sure many wish they were. Ed is the best of the best was destined for greatness as soon as he discovered he enjoyed the sport. Perfect leverages for pulling shit off the floor and standing up with weight. Obviously he trained correctly enough to win contest after contest and break record after record. Obviously he had the dedication, the coaching, and the fire.
Do you think he would have been as successful if he would have been built differently? I do believe the outcome would have been different. I am not saying he would not have been good but I question the greatness if levers were changed.
Back to safety
So here are three articles which state good form will be safe, and anything other than this form will be injury.
What if you are unable to move the way these experts tell you to? What if you are unable to get in to these positions of good form?
Is it possible the simple act of performing a single rep in “good form” could hurt you?
Sure are a lot of people being hurt under the eye of paid professionals these days.
Sure are a lot of people being hurt while rigidly adhering to the sacred ideas of good form.
In the comments of part I several people said good form is essential for safety, yet these very same people have seen others use good form and get hurt.
Obviously form is not the key to safety.
What would a scientist say about that?
How many data points are required to destroy a theory?
5? 50? 1,000?
How about 1.?
It only takes one single data point to disprove something.
So if you are telling me good form equals safety, I can prove you wrong.
Are there rules to form
“That one didn’t count because you didn’t use good form.”
This picture was posted on a site which said good form is off the table for debate or opinion. Bad news for everyone else, because very few people can physically move in to this squat position with that tool.
This one can be heard in nearly every gym, and read on nearly every single fitness centered forum on the internet.
Are we at a competition?
If so than there are clear cut standards for the lift. A judging criteria is established so there is no need to debate if something counts for purpose of competition, unless you are the judging official. It either meets standards or it does not. Judging standards are in fact something which are often debated and changed for many sports. Some people dislike a given standard so much they will create a new federation or sport to get around an idea. Seems people have differing opinions on what is proper.
With this said, most sports are centered on outcome of an event not how it looked. Even for lifting sports. The deadlift requires you lift the bar off the floor to standing. Most competitions forbid certain movements such as “hitching” but still allow the lifter to choose various facets of position.
So whether you think a sumo deadlift is a “real” deadlift or not, it is competition legal in the greatest majority of lifting events which test the deadlift.
Does this translate to noncompetitive fitness endeavors?
The Exercise Form police and International Form Monitoring Agency
does not exist…
If they do, they must be very ineffective…
What makes it “count” if it in fact counts at all?
YOUR goal, desired outcome, and current ability relative to the task at hand.
Why is this so hard for some people to swallow?
Why is this so fucking bothersome to some people?
Are you currently suffering from high blood pressure, decreased sexual performance, financial ruin, and social disaster because the guy who you see on Tuesdays at the gym does not squat to a depth of your liking?
If so – fuck off. You don’t run his shit.
“Good form” does not win you a comical giant check delivered by Ed McMahon or an awesome week in Cancun.
So now we have a problem, because it’s not automatically safe and it does not win you shit unless you are directly competing in a sport which is grading lifting.
“Bad Form” equals “Inferior Results”
Time to briefly explain what results are, than we can figure out if we are getting good results or bad results.
Why do you train?
Aesthetics is #1. You want to look better.
Performance is #2. You want to play better.
Longevity and health is #3. You want to look better and play better long.
Perhaps you will rearrange the order, but the three points remain accurate.
How does this happen with fitness training?
By changing our tissue.
We reshape our tissue through movement. We change our form with function.
Each movement we make has an impact on our tissue. A change will occur at some level to some measurable degree of magnitude.
To this end you are reshaping your tissue with each rep.
#1 Are there people who have improved their appearance without regard to “proper form?”
Yes, there are. Single data point folks.
#2 Are there people who have improved performance without regard to “proper form”?
Yes there are. Single data point folks.
#3 Are there people who have increased their health and longevity without regard to “proper form”?
Yes there are. Single data point folks.
Understand this
How you move (function) reshapes your tissue (form), and your tissue (form) limits how you move (function).
Exceeding the limitations of your form’s function will break your body.
So where do we go now?
Naturally I would not take this much time to point out a problem without offering a possible solution. I will talk about the solution in part III.
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Very well put Adam, your writing is getting more engrossing with every new article.
I always think of walking whenever “proper” form gets mentioned. Every human has a slightly different gait, yet nobody (except maybe the morbidly obese, elderly or drunk) get injured from preforming this movement. The basic mechanics of walking has been established, yet the execution is infinitely adaptable to the individual walker’s body.
Maybe the same could be said for exercise movements.
We all know what a squat or kettlebell snatch IS, but what it should LOOK like is somewhat of a moot point.
Very well put Adam, your writing is getting more engrossing with every new article.
I always think of walking whenever “proper” form gets mentioned. Every human has a slightly different gait, yet nobody (except maybe the morbidly obese, elderly or drunk) gets injured from preforming this movement. The basic mechanics of walking has been established, yet the execution is infinitely adaptable to the individual walker’s body.
Maybe the same could be said for exercise movements.
We all know what a squat or kettlebell snatch IS, but what it should LOOK like is somewhat of a moot point.
Fuck me, I thought I fixed ALL the typing errors.
“preforming”… WTF?
Nice article.
There is an old taijiquan (t’ai chi) joke that goes:
“How many tai chi players does it take to screw in a light bulb?”
“Ten. One to do it, and nine to say he did it wrong.”
Being a very new comer to the world of lifting and nutrition, etc. I have noticed that it is plagued with the same disease as many other fields with which I am familiar: ideological myopia.
It is difficult not to become chained up and weighed down by the way of thinking and attitudes with which you were raised; however, it often only takes a little bit of historical investigation, thought, and application to convince yourself to test and experiment. In fact, since we all too frequently seek out and bind ourselves up in those chains, it is important to make sure we test their soundness. The “true” “right” way to do things was different in the 19th c., it was different at the turn of the century, it was different for the muscle beach era, it was different in the 70s, it was different again in the 80s, and here we are at the beginning of the 21st c., it is different, but we finally have it “right”?
Nevertheless, people are resilient in their desire to claim exactitude and correctness. At this point I am not sure which group is worse–the exercise people or the nutritionists. I can’t tell you (actually I can, but I won’t) how many “nutritionists” told me I could not lose the weight I wanted in the time frame I wanted. Now that I have, of course I am doing it “wrong” or “unhealthy”–forget about the fact that I see a medical professional every week–they know better because it is how they were taught and what they chose to embrace.
Same with exercise folk.
Now–to be fair and clear–there is nothing “wrong” with the way they recommend–both the exercise and nutrition folks. They have fine ways that can produce excellent results. Although it strikes me that many of these ways are more about aesthetic, and culturally bound, concepts of “fitness” rather than health or strength.
What they DO NOT have is the ONE TRUE WAY that makes all other ways either bankrupt or dangerous. If you are going to subscribe to a way of thinking, or set of rules about doing something, then by all means follow those rules. The above notwithstanding, however, don’t confuse the fact that just because you and others have accepted a way of doing something as “correct” that that way is arbitrary from other perspectives.
Again, I am new to this stuff, but not doing poorly for a middle-aged, fat guy (-130 lbs. in just over 8 months, and plus quite a bit of strength and muscle).
Are my results “atypical”? YES.
Is my training somewhat “atypical”? YES.
This is an ugly word “atypical,” and I hear it being used in an ugly manner all the time. . . . Instead of it being used as an argument to support the current status quo of indoctrination, maybe it should be a sign that more people should re-think their ideological biases to think individually and “atypically.”
My four cents, because it went on a little longer than anticipated–sometimes I hit the soapbox too. Of course, all of the above is just my own ideological bias . . .
“I lift arguments up and put them down.”
I think people like the idea of strict form, because they want to be able to compare their accomplishments in exercise with other people’s. Either because they’re competitive, or because they’re insecure.
To a lot of people, it is not about looking better, getting stronger, etc, but about being able to do more pushups than their brother in law.
That is why we have competitions.
Push-up competition criteria:
- Chest must touch the floor.
- Arms must be fully extended and locked out at the top.
- Both hands must be on the floor at all times.
- Both feet must be on the floor at all times.
- Knees must remain locked with legs straight at all times.
See how easy that is?
So easy, but while many people are competitive, not that many are willing to compete.
This may or may not be true, but remember gentlemen this article is not centered on competition is it about beliefs relating to form.
For the groups education I will add these standards make it easy to judge, yet there is still room for different looking reps. That is a good thing. Some wiggle room for individualized movement.
Hands on the floor- fingers adducted or abducted?
Open palms or fists?
What degree of pronation/supanation?
What degree of internal/external rotation?
Shoulders moving in to extension primarily or horizontal abduction?
Neck position?
Degree of spinal flexion/extension?
We can all meet the standards and still look different.
This maybe accurate for some people. Follow the path of others and get stuck where they have been or worse. Do your own thing and see how great you can be.
And I have to disagree with “its not about looking better” – everyone wants to look better. They may grasp for a metric different then someone else but it still goes back to this. Fixation on “proper form” is saying this is how it is supposed to look and be. Whether they have some weird problem saying it or not is their issue.
I agree. It’s just that I think some people obsess over form because they care more about the exercise itself than about the results. People who fight on the internet about proper press form seem to get some weird sense of self worth from doing what they think is a perfect press. It seems to make them feel superior to people who do ‘bad’ presses.
As Gerry mentioned I too have seen this “ideological myopia” in the martial arts. So many people love to bash unorthodox fighters because they fight “ugly” or with “bad form”. Yeah, well that bad technique is knocking guys the fuck out on a consistent basis. Look no further than Anderson Silva’s recent knockout. Certainly not conventional but does that make it any less awesome?
Proper form is not only what gets the job done but respective to the individual doing the movement. I’m tall and lanky, my squat is going to look drastically different than a shorty stocky guys and my fighting style is going to vary even more. Are either of us wrong if we are both showing continuous progress toward our goals?
No doubt there needs to be clear rules across the board for competition lifting but only a small percent of us lift competitively. Most are concerned with one of the three major points Adam brought up and with that being the case, why wouldn’t you choose the path of least resistance toward your goals? You get them done faster, more efficiently and you are sooner ready to conquer new heights.
I think a lot of the form debate suffers from the concrete “only one way to blah blah blah” type of thinking when we have had a myriad of examples to show there is indeed more than one way to skin a cat. Really looking forward to part three, my cogs are already spinning.
Casey
very accurate relating to the MA world. FAR TOO MUCH TIME is spent on looking a certain way. Most traditional martial arts technique is extremely flawed in respect to physics and application.
I do believe MMA as a sport will be the destruction of traditional martial arts in America. I can only hope. Wrestling, boxing, Thai boxing, Ju jitsu should emerge over karate, TKD, JKD, and Kung Fu as people look more and more towards results. This is technically not a new trend, simply a cycle back to what it was when it mattered how well you put the hurt on someone else.
Casey another thing I think you will appreciate it the new direction Frankie and I will be taking with information. We will be releasing a lot more on violence, combatives, and MMA for sport.
Adam if you have never seen San Shou or San Da I highly recommend it. It’s rooted in traditional kung fu, but the fights look much more like MMA/Kickboxing. It goes to show how little of the traditional flowery nonsense actually carries over to the ring.
As you said Boxing, Thai Boxing, Judo, Jiu-Jitsu and Wrestling are proving themselves to be the dominant arts because not only do they allow individuals training them flexibility in their game plans, they are tested with REAL PRACTICE i.e. Sparring.
You are 100 percent correct this isn’t a new trend. Martial arts today are really only pragmatic for law enforcement, security and military. And I say this as someone who teaches them. Most people are never going to get into a fight and that’s a good thing. LEO, Mil and Security are the only folks who really NEED them, but the majority of money in the martial arts biz comes from the recreational practitioner.
But with the rise of MMA more people are aware and concerned with what is actually battle tested and we are returning to the very correct notion of “how can I best put the hurtin’ on someone?”
The beauty is that answer is going to be different for everyone.
To say I’m excited to see what you guys have in store for the MMA game is a massive understatement.
There’s a lot of learning going on in traditional martial arts programs that goes well beyond “putting the hurt on someone else”. Sure, as one bottom line, that’s VERY important, but it’s not what it’s all about. There is great value in structure, drill, sequence, patience, discipline, and respect. Not saying those couldn’t be/aren’t taught in an MMA class, nor that they always are in a traditional martial arts school, but to dismiss whole styles based on trends in MMA prep is a little short-sighted IMHO.
Boris I think you are completely right pointing out the other goods and benefits of the martial arts besides fighting. My major critique of fellow martial artists really just applies to “what works in a fight”. So many feel that only their way is correct, or if a punch or kick doesn’t look like how they think it should that it is deemed worthless, regardless of how effective it proves in combat.
I think that is something that is being taken more into consideration with MMA’s popularity. Now when I teach my Thai Boxing and MMA classes there is always those elements of respect, patience, humility et al involved.
My critique of Traditional Martial Artists is that many profess their fight knowledge when all they really practice is theory. Shadowboxing, Kata, pad/bag drills and the like are all good but they are just theory. You don’t KNOW your moves work until you get in the ring and spar with live resistance.
TMA’s have an influence on how I fight and I can attest to Tai Chi giving me great footwork and balance in my Thai Boxing and Judo. However I know that my Tai Chi is not what is going to protect me on the street. Yet some TMA’ers really drink the kool aid and think after a month of training they could handle themselves when in reality they cannot.
Besides most people who train martial arts only have X amount of hours they can dedicate a week. Usually it’s only two. With that being the case I would have them train in stuff I know works. Boxing, Judo et cetera. All have been proven and with that limited sense of training time that’s all I want them to focus on, what is proven.
Casey,
I agree with everything you just wrote.
Realistically, how much mastery, or competence (of even basic skills) can you expect from two hours a week? It’s a sincere question – I wonder if a little knowledge is just going to potentially get (some) people into more trouble.
On the subject of push-ups, I have no real opinion, but here’s an example of different form, same contest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq0KDrcUPSQ
Adam, sorry, this is off topic. But I am curious what your opinion is – as a trainer and a veteran – on the new Army physical fitness tests: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2011/0304/Army-s-new-physical-training-incorporates-yoga-resting
I will address this, but not right now.
Adam:
Just to answer your questions:
What is the guarantee “good form” will not hurts me?
There are no guarantees. I think that good forms puts the odds in your favor, but you can have good EXERCISE forms, but you could have something structurally wrong with your body that it can “handle” an exercise even with good form. On the flipside, some peoples bodies are “resilient” enough to handle deviations from form. Let’s say you step in a hole, for some that aren’t as resilient, you are more likely to hurt and ankle or a knee or a back.
Remember, and I think a lot of people forget this, “good form” (meaning safe and effective) is a MEANS to get the results you want, be in performance or body comp. It is not an END. I see way too many people SACRIFICE weight, density or volume to get to PERFECT form. I just want to be safe and effective.
Are there rules for exercise form? If yes, who determines and enforces these rules?
Assuming a movement is done in a way outside of what is considered proper based on popular opinion, does this mean our body does not change according to demand of the movement? Another way to say this is: does a less then “perfect form” produce “inferior results?” Do you know how to measure this?
I think this is three different things.
1. What constitutes the completion for an exercise. What makes a squat a squat, a snatch a snatch, a bench press a bench press. In my opinion this should have nothing to do with “form” itself. It is about completion criteria. This may include things such as how the exercise is done, and also things you can’t do (i.e., hitching in a deadlift).
2. Efficiency is another issue altogether. But when you talk about efficiency that also has the context of a goal or objective. Again, form should be a MEANS, not an END. The body ALWAYS changes SPECIFICALLY to the demands of the movement (SAID). They are two different things.
3. Context: This is important when multiple people are involved. This is why there are rules in Powerlifting context. For example, every jackhole in the gym “benches” over 250. But they have a spotter, bounce the bar off the chest, lift their glutes off the bar, have their hands wide. That is the GYM context. In a powerlifting meet context, the rules are a lot different, and so are the numbers. Different contexts DICTATE different forms. When people differ on the context, they will differ on their opinions on FORM.
Faizal I think you will appreciate part III
Adam- First, thanks for that article. Sets many things straight and it’s a good reminder.
A line that’s important to draw here is the difference between form needed for PHYSICAL PROGRESS/CHANGES vs. form needed for COMPETITION or other forms of comparison.
@Faizal- I like your analysis. I don’t have anything to add.
Looking forward to Part III!
Mat
Being that I hold a world record in a competitive lift, and have added 30 lbs to my pinch in 3 months I will disagree with a NEED for a form change between competition form and “progress/change” form.
Most of people can’t see movement for shit. They are unable to detect the majority of movement occurring, and what movement is not occurring, so for it to be obvious the change must be dramatic.
Mathieu let me know what you think about part III.
Great article ATG but then again I would have expected nothing less! I’ve always been a firm believer that the human body is designed to move a certain way when lifting heavy (even light) objects. With “perfect form” we are fighting our body’s natural abilities, which in my opinion would lead to more injury than less and less chances of meeting and exceeding goals, whatever they may be. In some circles I have heard what you have described as the loose form but whatever you call it its the only logical way to workout. Thanks for the article, its great to actually hear someone say what I’ve always believed.
Joe
If i can do anything to squash the waste of time that is form debating I will do it.
So far I have had a lot of feedback and no one has been able to give me one good reason to do anything other than be yourself. I feel like its a win.
I will say this, and it has always puzzled me because it defies the “common” position…I was at a stong man competition a few years back as a spectator. When the guys were lifting these MASSIVE lifting stones and placing them onto the ledges of various heights, NONE of them used what would be termed the “proper squat mechanics” or the “safe lifting position.” How did they lift these huge stones? Ironically, they hip hinged and bent over with flat backs or slightly rounded thoracic spines and pulled the stones off the ground with a sort of straight leg technique. One guy was over age 50 and had been doing this shit for years, and he did better than many of y0unger guys. So I guess in many ways what you use is what you know or what you were taught or what you can figure out on your own with your previous experience. While the AKC KBs are not my method, I have at least given up on the debates between the two. For me and what I do, I have a certain system based on what has worked. It has been an interesting couple of posts for sure Adam! Even if we don’t agree with all or any, it makes good reflective thought. I think you made some good points though. I’ll have to think about it a while.
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