Oh boy, oh boy
Some people think their job as a trainer is to nit pick form. You guys will really dislike this post.
Before we get going, common and popular ideas on form
- You must use good form or you will get hurt
- You must use good form or it doesn’t count
- Good form is the most important factor for a movement
To these I have three questions
- What is the guarantee that “good form” will not be what hurts me?
- Are there rules? If yes, are the rules scheduled around outcome or appearance?
- Does this mean our body does not change according to demand if the movement does not appease the eye of the judge?
“Houston we have a problem”
Please look at these three videos
Paul Andersons World Record Clean and Press
Serge Reddings World Record Clean and Press (which was immediately broken by Vasily)
Vasily Alexeev World Record Clean and Press
Three lifters, each one of them owns a place in the book which starts off with “strongest men who ever lived”
All three are called clean and press, all three in competition. All three records at the time. Looks different don’t they?
Now on to another example
Jeff Martone, Cross Fits leader of kettlebell instruction, teaching the kettlebell snatch
Steve Cotter, IKFF Chief Instructor, teaching the kettlebell snatch
Jordan Vezina, RKC Team Leader, teaching teaching the kettlebell snatch
Valery Fedorenko, Head Coach for the AKC and World Champion Kettlebell lifter, teaching the kettlebell snatch
These four men, all considered very good instructors in their respective circles teaching the same movement. Each man if asked would say they are right. At least two of the four would say the other three are wrong.
Is anyone wrong? Is anyone right?
Moving on…
The deadlift.
Here are three pulls which won meets. I believe all three were records in their class, to include the absolute world record.
Ed Coan pulling over 4X body weight. Is this the right form for the deadlift? I ask because I have heard a number of people say Sumo is not even a “real deadlift”
Konstantinovs 946 lbs deadlift at 275 bw
Andy Bolton’s absolute world record pull, 1008 lbs
Now, seems each of these is different too. If I keep posting videos I can find 8-10 variations of each of these three styles. Styles within styles. Good form? Bad Form? Is one of the men right and the other two wrong?
So back to my question, what is good form again? Seems both the champions and the instructors can’t agree.
Should you be concerned with it?
In the next installment I will talk a lot about form. A lot about what it is and is not. My conclusions may surprise you.
CLICK HERE FOR SACRED COWS: EXERCISE FORM PART II
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Form is by far the most important aspect in training. This is proven by world known Doctor Ken leistner. He has trained plenty of football players, strongmen, and himself. His type of training includes non-stop high intensity with limited rest. He used this type of training on his son, was one of the strongest men in the world. His name is Kevin Tolbert and is currently the head strength coach at Stanford. When Kevin was at his prime in strength, he was able to squat,(no belt, full ass to floot squat) 600×30 reps. Right after those squats he performed a bench of 405×15. He was once able to deadlift 450 pounds for 30 reps. No worlds strongest man can neary squat the weight kevin has squatted with no belt. Doctor ken himself at a bodyweight of 160 pounds was able to squat 405 pounds for 23 reps, again with no belt ass to floor squats. All of his exercises were performed with correct form. Also I am not getting this information from the internet, i am getting all this from the Doctor himself. Wide stance deadlifts or squats are not only cheating but increase the risk of injury.
Proof?
Ramiz,
While I do not doubt that is what you were told, I have many doubts about if that is true. You are making some statements which I will be questioning in the next piece of this.
Did you ever see Ken squat those numbers? Some of the readers who drop in are major history buffs in the iron sport and I am certain there will be discussion on that.
My primary question was what is “proper form” which you have not addressed yet.
Adam- Yes there is a video of Dr.Ken Squatting these numbers http://www.gridironincny.com/videos.html . Just look for the video that says Classic Doctor Ken (Squats). What i mean in my previous comment when i said “form is the most important aspect in training”, is that correct form must always be used. And of course there are exceptions for people like you dave with longer limbs ans same goes for significantly short people that deadlift. You have to work around certain exercises like deadlifts. Although what about a pressing exercises? A normal grip should be used for all people no matter the length of there arms. For you people with long arms, it is much difficult with people with shorter arm to perform an exercise, but doesn’t mean you should change your form. Same for pulling exercises such as up rows, bent rows, and pull ups. Again the man with the shorter limbs does have the advantage with these exercises. Same goes for Squats, my training partner is 5’4 and squats much more than i do because he has less of a distance to travel. But to the taller and younger guys “Life isn’t fair, but you have to deal with the hand you are dealt.” Just as David says.
I’m sort of with Adam here. Form is important, but what may be ‘good’ for me, may not be ‘good’ for someone else, especially when you are talking standard lifts. Let me supply an example:
I’m 6’3″, have decently long legs and a long torso. If I tried to use the exact same form while dead lifting as someone a foot shorter, while it may look the same, different muscle groups would be engaging at different points during the lift for each of us (unless I raised the bar up a proportionate distance, but even then, as I am not proportionate to everyone else, there would still be differences at when and how the different muscle groups were engaging). Not to mention, differences between people to account for different leverage (and the related distance of limbs and such), body composition, central of gravity, etc.
However, if you subscribe to a “there is only one correct form” god, I think you are doing yourself a major disservice, as not everything works the same for everyone. Life isn’t fair, but you have to deal with the hand you are dealt.
Dave
this is correct, and this begins to get to other issues.
Your size is one factor, what about how you move? Injury? Restrictions? maybe you have some unusual leverage? Maybe one leg is an inch longer than the other? Maybe your left elbow doesn’t extend all the way?
The list goes on and on, and you start hits the nail on the head.
“What may be good for me, may not be good for someone else”
Yes, we will be talking about a lot.
read the reply that i left above it has an answer for you.
Wide stance Deadlifts and Squats are cheating? That’s a crock of shit. How is it cheating if the weight gets lifted?
Ah Dont get emotional my friends. This will all be investigated tomorrow.
You tell me what is a crock of shit, a man benching with a flat back on a bench, normal grip, a chest to lockout repititon, or a man wearing a bench suit,and a arch in his back the size of a camel hump with such a wide grip you perform a rep that consist of a 5 inch movement? But sure the weight is lifted.
Well, NOW you’re bringing gear into the question. Leave it at form as per the discussion and I will continue the discussion.
I have seen and been taught 3 or 4 different styles of snatches and also I’m an RKC, I think what most people are forgetting Logan had a goal he reached and surpassed it. All credit to the coach that got him there. He has put in the time to work on a skill, lots of reps to bed it in, credit where credit is due. Thanks Logan and thank you Adam T Glass.
It takes a man to say what he thinks, it takes a bigger man to stand up for what and who he beleives in.
“All credit to the coach that got him there”
that would be to Logan then.
Huon since you have been to multiple KB courses, would you like to comment on what I have brought up with form here. Everyone is showing something different, and saying “this here is a kettlebell snatch”
Yeah, yeah – you can use a bit of pain to force the strain; when it’s an all-out record attempt…but you aint gonna get to that stage without loads of solid, in the bank, QUALITY reps. Much like an iced birthday cake – if the cake is good and the icing sweet then you could probably forgive the misspelling of the recipient’s name. The quality’s there – it was just that last bit, the icing on the cake if you will, that needs a little more QA.
However for the KB snatch/Deadlift etc. much like a cake made with dogshit: if you’ve chosen to start with dogshit – that, my friend, is what you will end-up with.
I am not following your starting point for this comment, but you brought in everyones favorite buzz word of Quality reps. Please define quality in a way that is universally appropriate for all movements.
Referring to the KB snatch- I posted videos by 4 instructors who are all considered to be the expert in their respective school. When you say chosen to start with dogshit, who or what are you speaking on? Is there one of these which you believe is better than the others? Or perhaps you would like to post a video for everyone on the technique which you believe is “correct”
While I agree that garbage in = garbage out, having actually watched Logan’s vids, plus watching some of his others previously, there was no garbage going in. If there were, that kind of attempt should have ended up with injury, if not outright, abject failure.
I guess my question for you would be are you directing that statement at this discussion specifically, or just making a general point?
@Logan Christopher- great work, and nice handling of your opinion on the RKC vs GS snatch methods. I hadn’t heard it put that way before, and I don’t know about anyone else, but I like that you found something to say about both and how they might help in goal setting.
General point, It will be useful
I agree 100%. Maybe that is something i didn’t mention in my first comment. Proper training is important, but for a record attapt “You can use a bit of pain and strain” i would do the same.
Excellent post.
Form can be important. But as Adam was saying it is hard to define what form is and what makes one form better than another. If I had to come up with a definition I would say “good” form is what will allow you (the individual) to reach a goal in the safest and most effective manner. I just came up with that so I am open to refinement.
If you are competing then you will have to play by someone else’s rules as judges are involved and you must meet their ideas of form. In any case I think it is good to know the rules before you break them.
Adam I really agree with this post. For years I was trying to fit a square peg into a round hole in so many ways. We all have different bodys and most importantly DIFFERENT GOALS. What works for Dr. Phil or whatever may actually injure me. People have such two dimensional thinking.
The funny thing is I found your blog (followed from A Durniat’s link) on the day you were talking about your Long Cycle Training and how, I quote, “resting in the rack is a fucking waste of time’.
Now I’m a GS dude so that got my attention. At first I thought, this guy doesn’t know what he is talking about. However, the more I explored your blog I came to realize something… that maybe for you, resting in the rack WAS a waste of time. Your goals are different then mine. You specifically said you didn’t want more tissue forcing you into a weird posture, but maybe I NEED that tissue to correct my warped posture.
Maybe for Logan doing speedy sets @ 30 reps per minute IS more useful for him than doing sets fully locked out at 20 rpm. I don’t fucking know. I’m not Logan. That’s the point. If you think you are gonna get to squatting 600 lbs for 175 reps just by following the ‘form’ of somebody else you are fucking insane.
Your right about speedy sets and fully locked out sets. But there are different types of training. A speedy set of 30 reps is rather dumb. If you are looking for speed, or explosion that could be done in a normal paced 2o reps. For example lets use a squat. As you are standing with the weight you slowly drop down untill your hamstrings touch your calves, and explode up with speed until you are standing erect. But this can be used for any rep range. Performing exercises with a slowly controlled ecentric contraction, and a full force cncentric contraction is the best type of rep. Now trying to perform a speedy set may be best for an increase in heart rate, for strength and explosion is the way I mentioned before.
Your best type of rep is not necessarily true. Olympic Lifters in my opinion are some of the strongest and most explosive athletes on the planet. They focus primarily on the concentric and try to minimize if not eliminate the eccentric. It all goes back to what your specific goals are and what is the right form for “YOU” to reach those goals.
Good form = specific to the individual’s structure, capabilities, limitations (injuries, knowledge or lack thereof of said movement etc), goals.
Even if the trainee chooses not to test their movements prior to executing them, the movement should be performed without compromising the elements of effort except during periods of deliberate distress training, or perhaps a max attempt during a competition.
“Quality” (relative to the first statement) in this context could be defined as movements that do not result in compromising the elements of effort, or pain, which as Logan stated allows the trainee to achieve their goals in the safest, most effective, and efficient manner possible.
+1 points for a functional scientific answer, sounds like you been paying attention to smarter people than FLEX magazine or T Nation
In my article I will be talking about these bullets too. You are so close. Almost there
I believe practice makes perfect.
In other words, the more you practice a movement the better you will understand your own body’s reaction to it.
People nowadays are so out of touch with what their bodies are telling them, it’s not even funny. Athletes from bygone eras did not have the internet to run to every time they wanted to find out how to eat, sleep or train. They just did whatever felt right and if they needed help, they found an expert and trusted his/her advice, without checking them out via misinformed internet forums first. I’m sure if something they were taught wasn’t working for them they’d make a change and try again until it did.
It seems that people are now looking to find what the majority “golden rules” are by hopping on forums, websites etc. to see who’s doing the most of what. (Point in case: Because a bazillion people are watching The Biggest Loser, a bazillion more believe it to be the Gospel according to Jillian.)
If you can’t figure out proper form without fucking yourself up then you should probably not even be exercising, (or procreating), anyway.
An expert WILL give you tons of useful information and advice, but common sense and self awareness should ultimately still prevail.
No amount of reading, e-mailing gurus and studying the latest techniques will ever replace good old fashioned action.
Edison did not subscribe to RSS feeds on bulb designing or bought self help books on inventing. He tried and failed hundreds of times until he got the end result HE was looking for.
I’m sure some of you will argue that just “trying” would constitute injury and general misery for the rest of your life. I’m not saying you should ignore good advice and proven techniques. You should of course ask as many questions as you can and gather all the information your brain can absorb.
The key is to actually go to the gym, basement or garage and actually test what you are taught, for yourself.
Solid Chris!
I am not a trainer or claim huge numbers in any specific strength event, but I can do 1 arm push ups, and pistols all day.
If form is the key; then how does Charles Barkley hit a golf ball straight with that terrible swing?.
Enrique
Good form = the form that makes you better.
Quality reps = reps that make you better.
Using traditional “proper” form screwed me up more than it ever made me better. Using Adam’s methods (Gym Movement) helps me find the best form for me on a given day that makes me better. Why do people struggle so much with this concept? Let go of the dogma and chase results for a change.
You hit it on the head, Tyler.
I lifted kettlebells for six years non-flaccid style, taught to me by one of the people we stole Alaska from. My back eventually started to get pissed off so I started to drift from that style. I found GM and the rest (and the back pain) is history.
People have to, for the love of fucking fuck, stop chasing the tail of dogma. That shit will catch you before you catch it.
http://www.gridironincny.com/videos/flash/ken/ken.html
Thank you boris! lol i didnt see someone already put up the site.
Btw do you train at gridiron?
here what i think we over compensate and and argue of the stupidiest shit, pick the fucking bell up and snatch it over head you need a masters to figure that out, and that bullshit snatch test is so over rated it makes me sick, and it not that hard , go work real movin company and runn bookboxes up 7 flights of stair and see what the form police say. you wonder why people do not work out something so simple gets turned into a mini series, that dude jordan is annoying he thinks his shit does not stink , and his beard sucks , stop acting tough cuase you lift a kettlebell i am not impressed by your shit
Great article and posts.
I am so tierd of the words good form, quality reps etc. If I should lift the fucking weight up I do not “feel the muscle” or “load tension” etc. I if think I can lift it, I do it in the best position, form that feels good for me without feeling pain.
I have lifted heavy (for me) barbells, boxes, bags over the years with rounded back without any problems. I began having problems with my upper back when I started lifting with straight back as every faggy forum expert say.
And regarding the feedback your body gives you, why do all forumexperts say that we should trust the sensation of tierdness, pain, thirst and horniness but when it come to hunger and what you want to eat right now that feedback are no longer trustworty feeling. Why does the body suddenly start fooling us when it comes to food and hunger and what to eat?
As always written here, start question things and trust your feelings. I have.
I am happy I found this blog, it have helped me a lot the last time, in fact it is the only training site I read nowadays.
Keep the good work up.
Markus- you have a keen mind. Question everything, test everything. Trust yourself, everyone else needs to be verified.
i would say the form on max lifts is allowed to look a bit skanky. good form does mean alot in training for those world record lifts i would say
LOL I like the use of skanky to describe the lift, made me smile
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