First read This Long Cycle Progress
Than review Long Cycle Progress 1.0
I am now able to move at a rate of 16-18 reps a minute and sustain it for several minutes. Today was a nice set, considering how many snatches I did yesterday and had a performance last night.
With 24′s the progress has been fairly linear- 1-2 reps per set everyday. 32′s has been +2 reps or a big increase in density. Either way every Long cycle day is marked with Personal records and a better showing. The last two weeks 16′s have tested better 4 out of 6 days, but whenever heavier bells come up the showing is a nice improvement.
Hard to expect more when You PR everyday 
Most interesting is Long Cycle tests well for me nearly everyday. Compare that to pressing, which is twice a week the last few weeks, deadlifting which is twice a week, grippers once a week, steel bending once every 15-17 days. I would think the prime association is lighter resistance, even though the sets “feel” much harder because of the speed and number of reps.
So far I am 10 weeks in to my Long Cycle training, and I am happy with the numbers which are coming out of it. Even better is none of my other training goals have suffered- still on track for all of my grip events even with the daily repetition KB lifting.
I see so many of you kettlebell lifters drop in here and read about my training- Whats going on with your training? I would not expect too many of you to be bold enough to challenge the traditional russian model, so how is the current progression you are working with?
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{ 31 comments }
As for challenging the status quo: I’ve been doing a minimum 10 minute daily set of whatever KB exercise without setting the bell(s) down since January. Double bells, single bells, juggling snatches, farmers walks, whatever. Travel and illness and some unforeseen circumstances have knocked me off schedule for hitting everyday (as my New Years Resolution dictated) but I get it in most days. It’s been productive. For example in March I did the 100 rep RKC snatch test with the 20kg (masters weight bell) all with my left arm in 5 minutes and again all with my right arm for the 2nd five minutes.
I think you training is going well.
However, I’d like to see you tighten up your form…the long cycle is a two part lift and you are smudging into one part. There needs to be a clear demarcation between the clean and the jerk…right now you have a tendency to drive the jerk right out of the dip you are catching the clean in. What you are doing aren’t legal jerks and wouldn’t be counted as reps in a competition. You may not be interested in that. But it is doubtful your RPM would be as high if you were doing legal reps.
Just an FYI, not a criticism.
R
Randy
I remember you talking about the 10 minute blocks earlier this year. Have you been moving your numbers up with this approach?
On my LC- all about speed for now. Slowing down is easy it drops me down to 10 reps a minute.
Adam,
I haven’t been focused on any particular goal with the 10 minute sets. I’ve set little PRs along the way 250 snatches (125/125)16kg 1 hand switch, 200 20kg snatches 1 hand switch, 5 sets x 5 rung ladders of clean and press w/20kg, 20 minutes of continuous long cycle 2 x 16 for 160 reps etc . Double bells (3 swings + 1 clean + 1 jerk is a fun variation) even with light weights really help the one arm stuff immensely.
Speed is fine…I wasn’t commenting on that or on your posture. You may have seen it already but here is some video of Denis Vasiliev cranking out a 5 min 17RMS LC test with 24s…he smudges a few reps, but for the most part there is a distinct dip and drive for the jerk after the clean. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2EysuKJIYY
You are doing a sort of “Viking Warrior” long cycle by catching the clean with a dip and driving right out of it…cheating yourself out of the work of the separate dip.
Randy
awesome clip- I have to play with that clean he does, very shallow/quick turn around with it.
Also- it is impossible for me to be doing Viking Warrior Long Cycle- I have no force plate so I am unable to measure force. I am not of the viking people, just regular ass American conditioning I suppose. Maybe I will call this RAAC
Adam,
Just be careful with your approach. You don’t want to end up this equation: +speed – technique / timed sets = Crossfit.
R
PS: Poor man’s force plate = bathroom scales.
Here is that damn SAID thing again. If one was in training for comp, I’m sure one would do them in a legal fashion.
After watching this, I myself do the LCCJ the way Adam is doing them. Less time spent in a weird-postured, racked position. It is my preference as well and I feel it is not right or wrong.
I am not arguing with you by any means, Randy. You have been doing this stuff since I was swimming in my daddys’ testicles. Just my one cent.
Steve- the posture thing is one of my key points of contention- I do not need more time with a funky spine positions under load, bending does enough of that for me. You can see from video 1 posted in March to now my shoulder/neck position is already much better (especially overhead), and my hip flexion is is far better
As we have said in other articles, there is no need for corrective exercise when everything is quality movement. This form for me tests far far better than any other style. I do test the traditional method (wait in rack) from time to time, and I also test that hideous excuse of a jerk we learned at RKC level II from time to time- My way is better.
HA!
Btw Adam, I’ve noticed a similar heel lift w. my own jerks once things start to fatigue – I don’t know what the answer is, but I’ll be working on it.
BB
One thing at a time. That is where you start. When i look at all the things which can be a problem, the question is where do i start? Any one can pick out different things to “fix” but can they do it in a way which is increasing performance?
I am at a point now where the reps look the same from 16kg to 40kg, and I am ironing out on piece at a time.
Adam,
I threw the Russian model out the moment I discovered Gym Movements. I didn’t even put it in the recycle bin…just threw that shit out. Glad as hell I did, I was sick of low back pain.
Plus my name is lighter and more efficient without those three letters after it, too.
I’ve had kettlebells for about 6 months now, and I do most of my training with them. My results have been nothing short of spectacular, with zero injuries, no plateaus and constant improvement despite the fact that I have never (as in: never) done anything even remotely Russian with them. I don’t tense my whole body to press my 32, I just push the damn thing overhead.
I’d also like to point out that I’ve never (as in: never) had any face-to-face instruction of any kind. No RKC instructor, no movement coach, no guru. People get so carried away because kettlebells look a bit different. Really, it’s not that complicated.
I was never hurt with KBs until I attended RKC level I. Everyone in the April 2009 class surely remembers how much pain I was in, I certainly did not enjoy it.
The only problem I have had was the stupid hip snap on the swing they are teaching and the bracing nonsense. before attending the course I was doing two hands swings with my 56kg for sets of 40-50 reps. Day one of the cert while swinging a lighter bell I was being told to do all kinds of shit which put me in fairly severe back pain for the rest of the weekend.
Now because I am such a good follower, I came back for Level II in June, and had the EXACT SAME PROBLEM. it was epic. I was told to do the exact same cues and amazingly it had the exact same outsome. So i spent the entire Level II course doing push presses instead of swings, which was far better.
I share this story (Which a whole bunch of people know if true because they were there) to high light only one thing– Our job is to make people better. Not fuck them up. Exercise form should be drive by what the person can do, not what we THINK they should be able to do. I dont care if someone has trained 500 people, if they have hurt someone cuing them than they need to check their fucking ego and investigate the entire concept again.
In short order- Do what tests best.
Goddamnright!
Brad,
I couldn’t agree more.
adam
great stuff, i will tell you were my training and my life is going through the fucking roof
there will be nothing that stands in my way. i have spent the better half of the last 4 months making progress in every aspect of my life just by doing not talking doing. Testing everything and going with what test best there is no other way my body will be treated and for my work i have been given pr after pr and i feel like i am a work in progress and just getting warmed up, no goal of mine will go unreached and for that i could not be happier the future looks real bright and i fucking lovin it.
Hey Adam, As you know I have been following your posts and vids for quite a while. I was glad to see you comment about your head position in an earlier reply, b/c I was going to comment that you look different now than you did when I first started following you. What is it? Hmmm, maybe “distress v. eustress.” Dude, you are killing it now and making something very difficult look very easy! Heck, that’s what they say about athletes! LOL!
Who’s the guy with the beard?
That is great tempo – I don’t think many conventionally strong guys could do that.
As R Hauer said, the reps might not yeild points; but no doubt you could slow it down and get a lot of points with 32s. You never considered doing a GS comp?
Hadn’t thought about testing the long cycle until today. Training is going well, as is my response with biofeedback. A workout last week of double clean and front squats (tested well, which made me happy) had me moving 950/lbs a minute. I know I shouldn’t get too caught up in numbers, but I felt really good being able to put out that kind of work. The carryover to the mat has been fantastic. I can move guys around much bigger than me, and people can’t really break my grips on their gi anymore
As you have read here many times- the only limit to your ability is the questions you ask. If you never think to question something, you will never learn something new.
Its all movement, nothing special about any one movement which makes it stand away from the quality of motion test.
Adam,
Everyone’s “form” is ultimately an individual creation. Everyone is built differently. It’s never about how someone else thinks it should look. That’s a straw man.
However, a front squat will not be a back squat regardless of how “individual” one makes their training. There are fundamental technical points to every movement that need to be adhered to, otherwise you aren’t doing that movement you are doing something else. That’s fine, but don’t call it what it isn’t.
A better plan is the plan that works for the individual over time. There is no best plan for everyone, there is only the best plan for a specific individual at a specific time in their training. This is nothing new.
As in cooking, there are plenty of training “recipes” out there that profess to be the best. The problem is, not every cook is a chef. There are no “Chef Books”, but there are plenty of cook books. If you don’t know or respect the basics, your omelette will turn out as scrambled eggs every time. The eggs may still be eggs, but they won’t be an omelette just because you say so.
And you can test that.
Randy,
this begins to shift to a different topic completely- we will return to this later.
short answer on the above post- i disagree with your first stateman as far as “It’s never about how someone else thinks it should look” we both know there are MANY trainer who are solely focused on making their people move the way they think they should
I disagree with saying “A better plan is the plan that works for the individual over time. There is no best plan for everyone, there is only the best plan for a specific individual at a specific time in their training. This is nothing new.”
If this is not new, than why are all of the current popular exercise systems designed on universal programs with cookie cutter reps/sets/days on-days off/rest times and exercise selection?
I do not claim we are the first people to say train instinctively, I do say we make that model work better than anything else currently on the market. Anything else.
we wil pick this up soon with a specific post on the topic of form.
It is nothing new because Zatsiorsky was writing about it in his first American textbook 20 years ago. Inconvenient fact, but true nonetheless.
I can’t speak for other trainers, but if they are applying cookie cutter training to individuals with specific goals then it is malpractice. If they aren’t honoring the individual’s unique biomechanics then they are just dopes.
Good stuff Adam and great discussion.
Randy, you are correct that Zatsiorsky and even Mel in Supertraining talk about his type of training. I agree with their principles.
What I have not ever seen unless you work 1:1 with a top coach, is the application of HOW to friggin do it. I don’t remember reading that in any of their books (and if I missed it, please let me know).
As far as I can tell, testing movement appears to be the simplest way that is yielding great results with no extra equipment and very little coaching.
Rock on
Mike T Nelson PhD(c)
http://ExtremeHumanPerformance.com
Mike,
Seriously? Siff’s and Zatsiorski’s books are loaded with ideas and principles that any thinking athlete or coach can apply to training. They aren’t cookbooks, they are idea books.
As for the Movement, even if touching one’s toes is biofeedback (and I’m not convinced that it is a dependable or objective metric) it doesn’t teach one how to properly squat, bench press, clean and jerk etc. Siff and Zatsiorsky don’t give a how to for performing specific movements either they, assume their audience has some baseline knowledge.
I did a toe touch test for toe touches this morning. Got my baseline and then tried to touch my toes. Then I tested again, it got better. Did toe touches test well or did I just stretch my hammies doing toe touches? And how would I know the difference?
Randy
Randy stated “Seriously? Siff’s and Zatsiorski’s books are loaded with ideas and principles that any thinking athlete or coach can apply to training. They aren’t cookbooks, they are idea books.”
Yes! I agree. I have both of them. The 6th ed of Supertraining is much better I think.
Let me try my point again. Yes those books do not tell you have to bench, squat, deadlift,etc. If you want details on that, pick up Rippetoes books.
My point was that the autoregulatory training is discussed in them. They coined it DARPE (daily adjustable progressive resistance exercise) (ref Knight 1979). This is nothing new.
In Supertraining they talk in great detail about it, but the closest version with no equipment for program design is to measure RPE and RT (rating of technique). They do talk about HR measurements and other methods, but it requires some equipment.
If you go to a really really high end, you can drop 40-80K on an OmegaWave system. I would love to play with one, but the cost makes is hard.
ROM testing appears to be simple and provides great feedback. RPE can work, but always checking to see how an exercise feels I think is going in the wrong direction. We want to be externally guided, internally governed (thanks Frankie). Testing allows you to do this.
If you don’ t like to measure your range of motion on a toe touch, you can use shoulder ROM or pretty much any other ROM you want.
Does that help?
Rock on
Mike T Nelson PhD(c)
http://ExtremeHumanPerformance.com
Mike,
Who made the decision that less range of motion meant an unrelated exercise tests “badly” and more ROM means it tests “well”?
It isn’t obvious to me (or particularly “scientific”) that either improved ROM or shortened ROM means anything at all about the efficacy (or lack there of) of an exercise.
RPE and technical breaks are pretty good indicators. And people will tend to work on movements they enjoy and those exercises will always tend to test well. Adam’s Long Cycle “almost always tests well” . No surprise. His LC also improves a lot because he works it a lot. Again no surprise.
Randy
Go get a dynamometer and test with it– More ROM is also more strength, more flexibility, more endurance. I demonstrated in the DVD. I would 100% recommend them if they did not cost 600-800 dollars a piece.
If you don’t buy in to it than don’t. I know you did a lot of testing when you first saw the sacred cows video. What have you learned in your own experiments? I don’t care what any of the books saw- what are your observations with your body?
I also like to bend, way more than I like to lift KBs and do not get to do it often enough for my taste. Reverse bending only works well every 10-16 days. nature of tissue- work with it or work against it.
More quality = more quanity
Adam,
Agree with quality over quantity. Agree with ease over effort.
The recovery rates of muscle groups are pretty well documented. No surprise that high intensity/CNS intensive work takes longer to recover from. That’s all well documented. Lumbars take longer to recover than the wrist flexors. Heavy squats take longer to recover from than light squats.
My personal experience doesn’t lend credibility to testing baseline and then testing movements. I loosen up with any exercise. So, I manage my workouts by my program, how tired I may feel, RPE, technique, speed etc.
I think what you have set up is an interesting practice but my thinking is the toe touch is coincidental not predictive.
If you do a squat and your dynamometer tells you the grip is weaker after doing that exercise, the only thing you have determined is that a squat made your grip weaker. The demo doesn’t tell you anything about the efficacy of squatting on that day.
Reverse the test: How about squatting as a baseline and then grip the dynamometer and see if your squat feels better or worse? If it feels worse, you’ve only shown that gripping hard hasn’t helped your squat…so maybe one decision to make is don’t do grip work before squatting. But it says nothing about which exercise is better to do that day.
RH
It is interesting you would draw out that picture, because crossfit does not own all the rights to +Speed-Technique/timed sets there are at least 5 other systems trying to catch that one
a big important note– instead of “best form” i believe people should strive for “best testing form” which may or maynot look the way someone else wants it to. This is how people are getting out of pain, this is how people are making gains, this is how it is going down.
I am as interested in discussing form as I am in talking about the “best rep/set plan” which once again research and studies provide nothing rock solid on. A better plan- do the reps and sets which test best.
See how this one goes round and round?