That's me on the left in a rare moment of ferocity
Hey everyone, I wanted to take a minute an introduce myself before I answer (or try to answer) some of your questions about my experience with biofeedback and Gym Movement. I’m going to be writing here on Walk The Road Less Traveled once or twice a week from now on. If you know me, it’s probably from my blog World’s Strongest Librarian. If you want to know more about all that, start there.
But here’s who I am for the purposes of Walk The Road Less Traveled:
- A normal guy
- A guy who loves to train
- A guy who has been training with Adam Glass for the last 4 months
- A guy increasingly impressed with Gym Movement and biofeedback
Why I’m here on Adam’s blog
I’m nobody special, but I’m experiencing some pretty amazing things. What we’re doing here is important to me, and I hope that we can all figure some things out together. This blog needs to experience some shifts as it becomes about all of our experiences, not just Adam’s videos and bellowing, even though I get a kick out of all that. This can be something that is bigger than all of us.
When Adam gives training advice, I think a lot of it gets lost in a mild form of hero worship. Most people see him as either intimidating or inspiring. Maybe a little of both. Either perspective dilutes the effectiveness of his words.
Saying “That’s cool, but I could never do that” completely defeats the purpose he is writing for: to help people like you and me become better. That’s it. My hope here is that I provide a”normal guy ” counterpoint to Adam’s superhuman abilities. Adam doesn’t suffer fools gladly. Well, I do. Maybe it’s because I am one.
Keep in mind, his abilities have not come because he is genetically gifted or because he outworks everyone. I have trained with Adam a lot and he would agree when I say he doesn’t train very hard.
There’s a big difference between training hard and training with wisdom and dedication. That’s where he’s at. That’s what I’m moving towards.
Gym Movement and Biofeedback
First: I’m a proud RKC and plan on remaining one for as long as they’ll have me. I love kettlebells and the RKC system has brought a hell of a lot of joy and strength into my life. It has led me to wonderful friends, mentors, and coaches. At the same time, the RKC, for me, is just one piece of the puzzle. I’m curious, so I’m always looking at everything.
Well, looking at everything led me to train with Adam during a period of transitions in his thoughts and actions. I’m always happy to be a guinea pig, so I agreed to start working with the methods he was using in his own training.
There has been some serious hysteria and confusion regarding exactly what the biofeedback and Gym Movement stuff is all about. Rather than spell out my thoughts, here is the best way I personally believe it can be said, via Seth Godin, of all people:
Doing the least acceptable amount is the way to maximize short term profit. (click here for the full but brief article)
Huge results with little effort. I like it. And I’ve seen it in my training.
It’s a tough sell, but I’m not sure why
In most areas of our lives, the path of least resistance pretty much leaves us slobbering and begging for more. Yet, in our training, any suggestions that we might ease up on behalf of greater results are laughed at or labeled “Pussifications” (my word). But that is exactly what I have been doing and my results have never been better.
But before this starts sounding like ad copy, here’s what I really wanted to get at:
Ask me some questions about Gym Movement, my training, Biofeedback, my experience with Adam, whatever
I will answer as candidly as I can, and I will respond to every question. I’m not going to pretend I know things I don’t, and I’m not going to try and get into the science. So far, I haven’t felt the need to know why it works for me. I’ve just stayed curious and observed. So far I’m happier than I’ve ever been with my training. I’m never hurt, I move better every day, I’m stronger every day, and my quality of life is pretty nifty right now.
But that’s starting to sound like ad copy again. Sorry!
Ask me anything you want. I have four months of experience as a normal guy experiencing abnormal results to draw from. I can’t draw conclusions, but I am more than happy to bounce some ideas and observations around with you. Unless you’re just being a dick, and then I’ll say, “Now then…you’re just being a dick, sonny.”
Let’s do it!
Josh Hanagarne
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{ 149 comments }
I’d have more questions…but I haven’t put in my reps yet.
But I did have the most fun I’ve ever had in the gym tonight.
What were you doing? I’m going back for the first time tonight for some crawling.
I did double-24 front squats, Red Rafter curls, 95lb Axle Press (ooooo thats fun), +25lb chin ups and I did a couple 1:30 rounds of juggling the red rafter.
Moved 8847lbs in 38 minutes.
I did double-24 front squats, Red Rafter curls, 95lb Axle Press (ooooo thats fun), +25lb chin ups and I did a couple 1:30 rounds of juggling the red rafter.
Moved 8847lbs in 38 minutes. I’m planning on ramping that up more, just wanted to see how things felt.
Looking forward to the new site! I cant wait for my GM DVD to arrive.
Josh, what is your current traing schedule like: What you have been Training? Training Frequency? how many lifts you train per session? Ect….I know it varies based on feedback, but what is your body telling you it likes currently?
Im not sure what your goals are, but will you give us some info on where you started and where you are now. Ex. BW, Body composition, PR’s, ect…..
Thanks
Joe
Joe, on my current block I’m working on gaining mass. This means high volume. So far, the level of volume has meant training 2-3 times a week, with some grip sprinkled in when I feel like it.
Lifts per session: I’m rarely doing more than 3. I prefer to rotate between 2-3 exercises in a continuous loop. When one of them fails to test well, I drop it and continue with the others, provided range of motion doesn’t decrease. When I only have 15-20 minutes, I usually just pick one lift and go.
My body is currently fond of deadlifting, light squatting, pressing with the axle, floor presses, grippers, chinups, and dumbbell rows. These all support my goals, which are:
600 lb deadlift
1 arm pullup
bodyweight front squat
pressing two 32kg kettlebells in one hand.
Since September, I’ve gone from 220-253 in BW. I don’t know about composition, but I’ve never looked leaner. I’ve put 100 lbs on my deadlift in the last year, pressed the 48k kettlebell easily, and have increased my typical workout volume by over 50,000 lbs.
No questions just yet
Just wanted to say I like the new site. And I’m pleased you’re gonna be contributing.
Cheers.
Kira, it’s going to be fun. I’m so glad I was able to bully Adam into getting off of blogger.
I’ve watched all but the last of Adam’s biofeedback videos on YouTube. Is there a particular method to deciding which test you do when you’re deciding which exercise to do? It seems like generally he sticks with the same joint (i.e. if you’re doing presses, check shoulder mobility) but I remember there were exceptions to this.
Thanks
There are exceptions, but they don’t really matter. I asked Adam the same question, saying, “I’m more comfortable with the toe touch. Do I need to do anything else?” He said no. The exceptions would be something like having physical limitations in the toe touch that would make another test better.
On the rare days when my hamstrings are sore, I do range of motion overhead. Grip strength is also an indicator, but just about any movement can be used. It will get better, or not.
Okay, as a beginner to this topic, here’s a question: How do you tap into biofeedback?
Liz, up in the articles tab, I’ve put all of Adam’s biofeedback videos there, in order. Start there, and then come back and we’ll talk about specifics if you have questions.
Liz start by visiting The Gym Movement page (links are all over this page) and watch the videos. Watch my programming videos on this page, – start testing. When you want the whole story buy gym movement
Hi Josh – I will be doing the toe touch as my test.
I have a few questions:
1) Should you fully stretch out before your first test to ensure your test toe touch is not getting better because you warmed up?
2) With my very limited experience, differences are subtle most of the time. Does you ability to determine differences increase rapidly?
Thanks and nice seeing you at the Grip&Rip.
Tom,
In my experience the “stretching” effect doesn’t work the way you’re concerned about. You can do a few movements that test well, and then if you do one that tests poorly your toe touch will snap right back up to the baseline or worse. If the stretching was having any effect, this wouldn’t happen.
Thanks Dave – see what you mean – I just started Monday – took Sunday off because my hamstrings were pretty stiff from all the deadlifts I did at the G&R.
Agreed. You can “run the rack” of five movements and then reverse it. The ones that tested poorly will still test poorly, even though you are more stretched by then on the way back.
Tom, I personally don’t stretch. At first, I thought that being warmed up could corrupt the results of the test, but it doesn’t matter for me. Bad movements (for that day) test badly whether I’m pouring sweat or freezing cold.
2. I think my tests are more obvious because my body is screwed up by a decade of moving poorly. When I work on my ankles, I might gain a foot of ROM in the test. That’s because my ankles are about as effective right now as stumps would be. Subtle differences can be a good thing–maybe you’re just not a train wreck:)
Josh,
It was great to meet you this weekend. My results have been much like yours, but I have only been using them for 6 weeks. Already gained 5 lbs. of muscle and 20lbs added to double overhand axle deadlift! Your results are phenominal and I can’t wait to see everyone’s beastly transformations by next year’s Grip n Rip. I’ll start reading Blood Meridian next Monday, should be exquisite. Wishing you nothing but the best,
Dustin
Let me know how that book goes, and right back at you on all fronts. Keep marching forward.
Just finished my workout for the evening. Today only two things tested well, bottom up presses and sledge levers. My PR for BUP was astounding today, I went from a total of 18 reps which is the PR I set on Friday, to 41 reps today, more than double
I’m not sure whether I attribute this to biofeedback, the fact I fasted yesterday and feel really revitalized today, or perhaps both had a contributing factor! Either way I am very happy!
The fasting I took as a mental exercise after reading The Mighty Atoms biography, I thought I had nothing to lose from not eating for a day (apart from maybe some podge!) and some mental toughness and body cleansing to gain! I tell you what, after not putting a morsel of food in my mouth for about 36 hours my breakfast this morning tasted like heaven!
My question:
When performing exercises that are split left and right, i.e. presses, do you test rests between sides? Today I decided to do this and it extended the rests slightly between each side, perhaps contributing to the increased number of reps.
Kris, I personally do it like this:
If I’m doing something that requires reps with each arm, I test the movement with one rep on the right, then one on the left. You can test the sequence of movements, if that makes sense. Then you have the baseline range of motion for right arm then left arm, then you know which ROM you are watching for so you recognize it when it returns.
Kris these questions are bested asked and answered by one’s own self
Just wanted to chime in too. I was a little worried about attending Saturday. (It may have been too far out of my league.) Thankfully I am blessed with an over abundance of chutzpah. (Something got me through learning to drive an 18-wheeler.) So I decided to go anyways. I must say I had a blast. Still working out the application of it all, but all in all I have lots more to play with. (And a longer wish list of things I want to buy. Man those mace swings were fun.)
Hey Rachael, it was great to meet you. Just keep marching forward. (I liked the mace too!)
Another great post from the “Worlds Strongest Librarian.” Q & A that can be answered from Adam and a 6’8″ 250lb machine that has been working the Bio Feedback protocol for six months and has gained 30lbs. This is AWESOMENESS at it finest. Happy to see that you will be doing some guest posts here Josh. What great weekend it was.
Wow! AWESOMENESS at it’s finest!
hi guys, is it best to resume your workout once your base line rom returns or should you wait until the increased rom that the exercise choosen produced when testing in the beginning of your workout. I did floor press tonight only, nothing was testing well. I was waiting for my base line rom to return, with all the info given to us i forgot whitch one i was suppose to wait for. thank you frank
frank, I’m always waiting for the “best” ROM to return.
Josh,Great post.I’m glad your on Adam’s site now and look forward to your future post’s.I have a quick question.I know you recently pressed the 48kg.I just hit the 36kg a while back using Adam’s Radiant Dawn program.Did you use Adam’s program exactly as written or did you modify a bit? I really want to hit the 40kg and the 44kg by the end of the year.Any other advice?Thanks Josh.
Joel, I worked within the skeleton of the RD program, but I only used movements which tested well. Day 1 wasn’t always Bottoms up presses. Day two wasn’t always stacked presses. Sometimes I wasn’t up to the push press walk outs.
But I always pressed heavy if it tested well, and I limited all other overhead work. I’m now closing in on the 56k with the same idea.
I’d love to know how it goes for you!
Hi Josh,
It’s all very interesting, but I’m skeptical.
The biggest issue I have is why your body has to ‘like’ an exercise in the short term? The classical supercompensation model would suggest that there is a decline in physical condition (fatigue, exhaustion, loss of power, etc.) in response to exercise-induced stress, before adaptation takes place and brings about a net positive change in fitness (or strength, speed, etc.).
The bottom line is that the body does not ‘like’ what is happening to it, which forces the adaptation. For example, the effects of 20 rep squats are the stuff of folklore – vomiting, nausea, etc. Certainly not the short-term signs of an exercise which would agree with the thesis of the bio-feedback program IMO. But historically the squats have been very well known in their ability to bring about dramatic increases in size and strength.
Gavin, you’re absolutely right to be skeptical, but I hope that you’re willing to test it out before you dismiss it. What I’ll say is that I know 20 rep squats will produce good results for me. I’ve seen it happen. I’m interested in best. I train for fun. It’s hard to keep it fun if it hurts. Right now I’m getting the best results I ever have, I’m happy, I’m pain-free, and I can’t wait to get back into the gym. That ain’t how it works for me when I’m on a gut check 20 reps squats program. I don’t know…maybe I’m just a big puss:)
I hope you’ll give it a try. I really do. I guarantee you, if you try it and it doesn’t work, Frankie would love to talk to you.
Gavin,
PLEASE be skeptical!
That ensures you will test things before adopting them.
As you can surmise,
from the data we’ve collected,
we disagree with the “Classical Supercompensation Model.”
As I understand it,
adaptation is not a quality to be forced…
It is an everpresent condition.
We need only point it in the right direction…or at least a better direction.
Doesn’t adaptation make more sense defined in this way?
Frankie,
Your repsonse here is brilliant!!!
Many grip guys need to grasp what you’re saying
about adaptation.
Thanks!
Hello,
I’ve been following biofeedback vids since day one and now i wanna put it into practice. First, thanks guys for providing free information about this great tool to everybody get better at their workouts. It is also very nice this space for Q & A which should take care of some doubts me and others have.
I have a couple questions for you Josh, lets say the deadlift tested really well today, how do i know about the intensity i should put into it and what about the volume? Should i test for each increment i do on the bar? Or putting this in other words, how do i test if this is a good day for a PR at the deadlift (obviously i should not test with a maximal poudage to see if it is good for maxing out today). I know the second video of Adam talks a little about sets and reps(but only with kbs) but i did not understand how to put it with barbells.
Thanks in advance
Ricardo
Ricardo, for me–and Adam and Frankie might jump in here and correct me–here’s what I’ve done for max strength so far. Obviously, you can’t run a test for a weight you’ve never lifted, since you don’t know if it’s going to shoot up or not.
But you can test the pattern. If it’s deadlift max day and I’m just itching to try it, I check the deadlift pattern without any weight and see which style tests best. Then, If I’m mentally ready to go after it–you know that feeling, don’t you?–I dig it and go for it. There is almost certainly much more sophisticated tweaking for max strength, but I’m not the guy for that question yet.
(I learn best by thinking through and answering questions. I may be wrong and I am ok with being wrong. So kept that in mind while reading this. I am sure I will be corrected if I am way off.)
From my understanding of what I have heard from Adam. Start with a conservative weight and do one rep lifts. Test between each rep. If the test goes south, drop back to the previous weight. Lift in sets determined by your constancy – no change in tension, breathing, rhythm, alignment. Your rest between sets is determined by your ROM returning. Continue lifting that weight until you no longer recover your ROM.
Ricardo,
LOAD
Test the movement.
Load the movement.
Increase the load until you get diminishing returns on your biometric of choice – for me that’s ROM.
VOLUME
Continue performing sets until you lose your best ROM.
I’d just like to comment on how unbelievably awesome this site is. There exists a site where the people not only share my passion for human performance, but my passion for Cormac McCarthy as well. The librarians in my town suck by comparison.
Brad, I might be the only Cormac-head here. If you ever really want to get down with books, come over to my blog and we’ll hang out:)
Brad,
You are right, this site IS awesome. Josh really is the only well versed Cormac-head here. But I have read The Road, No Country…, and The Crossing. I’m already a Cormac-head, just haven’t read all his stuff yet (I will have within about a year if things don’t change!). The librarians in my town suck too, so I consult The World’s Strongest.
Dustin
guys, if you are trying to increase flexibility say overhead pressing. How does one go about that? I know stretching doesn’t work well. Is it with the biofeedback will just increase the rom over time. I am guesing that is what will, but i was wondering if there is a way to make it increase faster.
frank, I’m not sure I understand your question. Would you mind restating it?
Frank,
I may have to do a product on this:
Here’s as much as I am willing to say right now.
I am a fan of more of the active/dynamic and rarely “ballistic” style stretching movements and also loaded stretching.
Perform these types of movements that test well paying attention to minimizing pain, tension (change direction as you move into tension), altered breathing, altered alignment (losing alignment in areas not related to the ROM drill you are performing).
In general, I am not a fan of static stretching, isometric stretching or PNF style stretching.
That doesn’t mean don’t test them, though.
This is not about what I believe…
It is about what tests well for you….and only you!
josh, what i was trying to say if flexibility was my main interest, how would i go about it. Its not my main interest, but i am curious about it.
Frank, I’m not the guy for that. Is flexibility your main interest? If so, there will be ways to get it without traditional stretching. Any of you geniuses want to jump in and answer Frank’s question?
Frank,
Did my response suffice.
If not, can you restate your question?
If flexibility is the goal, we do the same things we would for strength work. This is something i can talk you over on the phone very quickly, please call me on Sunday this week.
frankie, yes you answered my question and thank you, i was just restating it for josh. Thanks josh. Man this stuff makes me think so much. I have like a thousand questions in my head. I to like you josh want more mass. I am 220 and i want to be 250 or so. Is the best way to go about it is to get you pounds moved per workout up. I know josh that you said you are getting your workouts up to 50,000 to 60000 pounds per work out. Is that when you really noticed the big gains? Frankie i have a question relating to mobility work. Before the grip and rip i was doing intu flow, z health mobility work almost daily. I notice that i feel better the last couple of days and i haven’t done any mobility work, just the workout using biofeedback. The contra specific work really makes sence to me. Do you think you even need mobilty work or will the workouts cover most. I wonder if the complete mobility programs i was doing was moving thinks that didn’t want to be moved and some that needed it. Those making me go in circles.
thanks so much everyone
Frank
Do as much mobility work as you need to move for life, do as much as you need to attain your specific goals. Nonspecific mobility practice for me has always been very slow progress. If you follow your test results and work a variety of large patterns you will move better every week.
Frank,
I think you are exactly right!
No movements, including the small ones, are inherently good for you all the time.
Your small movement practice need only include those movements not covered in your big movement practice or those opposite to your big movement practice.
For mass gains:
volume, load, rom and density
are all important.
Volume is way up there on the list.
Frank, I first noticed serious mass gains when I was on the Return of The Kettlebell program. Heavy doubles work. I hit a wall with that and couldn’t quite keep up with the program, which was about the time I started experimenting with Adam. I would say yes, that since my poundage per workout and week have gone up, I am putting on more muscle, and it’s pretty dense as well.
My goal is to move 100,000 this Friday in about 90 minutes. Progress comes fast. About a month ago I was averaging 15-20,000/session.
I have another question about pressing, If i press normal my shoulder clicks toward the back of it, no pain at all just clicks My question is should i be trying to find a groove where it doestn’t click. Just wondering if i find a better pattern of pressing where it doesn’t occur might help my body get rid of it. Kind of like if you always work to failure your body gets us to failure.
Sounds like something to test…
at least to me.
I get the same click, but it in my left elbow. (my “bad” left knee and right ankle does it too) For me it usually goes a way after about five reps. I have not considered changing my groove to one that avoids it. mmmm……
My left shoulder clonks
It seems we’re all falling apart haha
It’s possible its just a large calcium deposit, so with enough movement it will grind itself down eventually and your lymphatic system should clear away the debris. I’ve never really worried about the left shoulder clonk because it doesn’t hurt it’s just a little weird. I only get it when doing heavy presses.
I’m open to suggestions as to what it could be though.
I’ve never worried about clicking, but that’s probably because I’m clicking everywhere. As long as it doesn’t cause pain, I’ve always felt safe, noises or no.
Josh,Thanks for getting back to me.Good luck on the 56kg.I’ll check in with you later with some results.
If isometric stretching isn’t the way to go to achieve splits, then what is?
Hello guys,
Today i put the tests into action and I tested 8 exercises (conventional DL, sumo DL, swings, kb clean and press, kb BUP, fat barbell military press, bending DO and bending DU styles) and all of the exercises tested sligthly less than 1” improvment from the base line (used the rom test ) so i decided this wasnt a good day for those exercises and didnt train today as the improvement were very small. Is this a correct approach to gym movment? You should only do an exercise that causes a big increase in rom right? I feel that the tests should be very precise to not fall in mistake so i tested twice for the above exercises and the results were the same.
Yesterday my wife tested too and although she was very sore from a previous workout the kb clean and press tested really well (a bit confusing and enlightning at the same time).
This leaves me with the thougth that if me or someone is thinking in optimizing strength gains or whatever the goal is, should allways test for something everyday of the week. Is this also a correct approach to it?
Thanks Guys
Ricardo
Sounds like you were testing DL and over head pressing (and bending that I know nothing about.) If those two movements are not testing well, try movements tha are the opposite movements. I was going to list some examples. However my train of thought kind of crashed and I could not come up with anything other then dips.
Ricardo, what are your goals?
As far as lifting my primary goals are 3x bodyweight DL (now is about 2x) and BUP pressing 1/2 bodyweight (now about 1/3). My bending goals is the red nail in IM pads (a bit far from this).
Obviously my testing should be around these exercises or around the exercices I think that should help with that goals. Funny , this leaves me another question, if out of curiosity i tested another exercise or like Rachel said an opposite movement , wich is not a primary goal and that caused a positive feedback, would it be wise to stray from what the goals are and do what the body is “asking”. This way of training leaves free way to freestyling the workouts, wich is the opposite of what i belived (consistent hard work on the same exercises for months).
What you guys think.
Ricardo
Ricardo did you watch all the videos?
The order of testing should be:
Exercise specific – the actual exercise you want to improve at
component specific – an exercise that works the same muscle groups to help achieve your goal
contra specific – an exercise that works the opposing muscles
non specific – anything you like
For example for improving BUP, you would test BUP, then if that’s bad test a regular press, then maybe pull ups or pushups
I’m confused and have a couple of questions: When I test well for, say, stacked press with 70lbs, and I perform three before I feel like I can’t perform another good one, it’s sets of three for that day, right? (Unless I decide to do ladders or perhaps push for a PR in consecutive reps and call it a day, etc.?) Now how do I know how long to rest between sets? I perform three presses each arm, then test. That test should result in an increase of range of motion or a decrease? I’ve been getting increased ROM with everything and taking rests instinctively. When ROM decreases I call it quits. Am I supposed to see an increase only when I test for the exercise/weight, then a decrease for working sets? If so, do I then perform another set when my test returns to the original postive point? Or am I supposed to see that increased ROM with every working set and do another set when I test at the baseline?
Joseph,
1 . Your first set results in 3. This is roughly the number of sets you will do.
2. Test immediately after the set, most likely your range of motion will have decreased slightly. If not, begin another set whenever you feel ready.
3. When your range of motion returns, begin another set.
4. Next set, you go until 4 until you feel like it’s breaking down. Stop.
5. Wait until ROM returns, and then start again. This time you get 3 again.
6. Stop the sets when your range of motion stops returning while resting, or you can no longer perform clean reps.
You’ll be surprised how many sets you will rip off, and you’ll be even MORE surprised at how you feel the next day.
Last night I did 6 sets of 5(right/left) 16kg Bottoms-up presses and my shoulders feel the best they’ve ever felt today.
Joseph, thanks for the question. If you do stacked presses and get three good reps, that doesn’t mean three reps for that day. that means that you got three reps in that set. The next set, you once again go by feel, terminating the set when you are using too much tension, breathing improperly, or get pulled out of alignment. Then spend the next 30-90 seconds retesting. Once your best ROM returns, Go again. Repeat until you can no longer correct mistakes or your ROM never returns to best.
i have a question about when you have completed a set, you check your rom it has decreased is it wise to do mobility work to make the rom returen faster. I was doing a workout yesterday and i noticed that after my set i would do ankle tilts and i could get my rom right back. Is this forcing my body to be ready too fast or is this ok.
Frank, if it tests well, and it causes no pain- go for it. I personally do not do that, but that does not mean anything
Adam you said that you will let us know when the level one cert will be coming up right? 4 to 6 months did i hear that right. Just trying to line things up for the future.
thanks frank
correct
Man i really cant believe the way my body has been feeling since this weekend. I was following the biofeedback for about a month, but never figured out reps and sets. Now that i am doing that it makes a big difference. My shoulders are feeling better by the day. I didn’t want to even write it because i thought it was in my head. The contr movements are huge for me do to my work. I find that rows, deads and neck harness extention really work well for me. Tonight pressing tested good, felt great because it hasn’t in awhile, so thats a good sign. I didn’t get in a whole lot, 55 reps with the 53′s for double mp. They never felt lighter. Man it feels good to have fun again working out.
This was why i wanted you to attend the wrkshop over signing up for more distance training, and no ites not all in your head. Pain is real, and when you are not feeling it that is beautiful
Awesome, Frank.
Okay, I’ve been doing this wrong I think. I’ve been getting increased ROM after each working set, then after I rest a minute my ROM is back to baseline. I should be seeing a decreased ROM, then it’s time for another set when it returns to the original increased (not baseline) ROM. Does this mean I’m not pushing the reps high enough? I feel weird asking this, but am I way friggin’ stronger than I realize?! (That would be sweet!) Thing is, I got sick a while ago and took some time off. Since then I’ve been taking it easy getting back into it. Sounds like my body is giving me permission to go for it? By the way, this whole thing is awesome. I’ve always been a seeker and a lover of excellence in all things. I found excellence in the arena of training, and I’m grateful for you folks having shown me the way!! Hope I can pass it along to someone worthy!
Another question: If one’s goal is fatloss and conditioning, should one return to swings or whatever when test returns to baseline ROM or back to the original increased ROM from the initial test? I apologize if someone already covered this. Can’t seem to find it in the DVD…
Joseph i will address fat loss in a direct article this week
Josh did u say u were drinking a gallon a. Day to gain mass. I am trying to gain 30 pounds anything else u ate to make it.
Frank, I tried it, but it didn’t last. I’m eating about 6,000 calories a day. I don’t eat a lb of ice cream every minute like Adam, but I don’t eat celery all day either. Here’s my secret weapon, 2-3 times/day.
16 oz whole milk
one banana
two cups of eats
protein
some peanut butter
Blend.
this is a super easy way to get between 1000-1300 calories at a shot. Then the rest of the day, I eat meat and vegetables. I do like ice cream, for the record.
Ice cream is the secret weapon! All these guys bitching how they can’t gain weight need to stop eating like little birds. Its easy, every hardgainer i have ever trained put on 20lbs of lean mass in three months once we get them off Vo2 snatches and chicken breast.
Frank,
Here is my before-bed recipe. Should be around 600 cals depending on milk/water etc, but mostly fat and protein good for overnight muscle repair. I use a magic bullet, if you don’t own one buy one immediately.
1 cup cottage cheese
2 tbsp (just a big scoop) all-natural peanut butter
1/2 to 1 scoop chocolate whey
fill cup with whole milk
about a 1/2 teaspoon of stevia
Blend until smooth as a milk shake.
I just eat Ice cream and pizza, getting leaner each month
You guys are nuts! How the hell do you remain lean while taking in 6,ooo cals a day?! Seems impossible. All that added mass=more strength once you’ve gotten “skinny strong”?
Just so you have it in perspective, Josh is 6’8 252lbs. I am more dainty at 5’11″ 185 , but I need 3500-4k to gain weight.
thanks, david and josh. I like those shakes i will try both.
Adam- how on earth do you get leaner on ice cream and pizza??? If you teach me that secret you’ll have my undying loyalty forever!
Things I watched Adam eat over the Grip & Rip weekend:
- Stack of pancakes covered in nuts, blueberries, and syrup
- Half a key lime pie
- Over 250 ounces of Guinness
- Boneless buffalo wings, a steak, kung pao chicken, and potatoes
Things I did not watch Adam eat:
- Chicken breast
- Broccoli
- Lettuce
Wilson was the one who ate the ky lime, i do not like Pie. Your forgot The chicken+chicken+steak was one meal+the good dark stuff.
I am not a rabbit, i do not eat lettuce
Trivial details
Eat all the animals, with hot sauce!
So the magical secret to infinite power is Guinness? And here I was thinking the occasional pint was a nice treat, when I should have been chugging it down
Then again, don’t you guys have bad Guinness in the US? I heard from one of my old colleagues that the Guinness over there is fizzy and he only found one bar that sold proper Guinness!
No that is no true about the US. I have drank Guinness all over the world, everyone was right on about the same.
I decided to google it, you’re right. I think what he might have been referring to was a special 250 year edition that was sold in the US and Australia that was carbonated.
One of the main reasons I prefer Guinness to lager is its lack of fizz, I don’t like getting bloated! All this speak of it is making me want to drink some now
So you drink gallons of the stuff? Is this purely because you’re a Guinness-a-holic or because it’s a good way to pack in silly amounts of calories?
hi guys, quick question when you guys are selecting your weight to work with, what do you do when your body says use low weight but you want to see your max strengh is. Are you guys waiting for another day or just going for it. Josh when you did your bup with the 40kg did you test the weights, or you just saw the exercise was testing good that day and just did it. I just don’t want to rush the heavy weight if my body doesn’t think i am ready, because my body is feeling better as the days pass.
thanks
Frank, I asked Adam the same question. I’m not ever going after heavy weight unless 1) the patterns tests well (bup in this case, tested with a 24) and 2) I feel mentally up to going after something big. I don’t keep hammering away at attempts is they’re really iffy and hard. i knew that day that I’d get it. I could feel it, even after a couple of gentle misses. You don’t want to start associating the movement with the feeling of failure, so I’m trying to back off when it’s probably not going to happen, and keep practicing as long as I’m not straining.
My 2 cents: Friday I really wanted to DL, and I really wanted to pull a PR. Well, I tested conventional stance DL and it tested like crap over and over again. On a whim I tested sumo, and got a major increase in ROM.
At that point I kept adding weight, pulling, and testing. Everything continued to improve up until I pulled 465 for 1 rep for a PR.
Basically, like Josh said, you’ll just know.
Good job, David. I’m happy and annoyed that you’re going to fly by me in the deadlift:)
Superior pulling
nice david, thats some heavy weight especially at 185. Yea i just tested and my rolling thunder tested good got two pr’s right hand 169 and left hand 154. i haven’t done it in a while so this was a suprise. josh i just blended two of your secret weapons up, the road to 250 begins.
Good job on that RT!
When I started the toe touch test( at the G&R 2), I considered “tension” as a very minor stiffness in my lower back. I was getting fairly small changes in my ROM using this indicator. I have since found that pushing through that until there was tension in my hamstrings allowed for more distinct differences in my toe touch ROM test. It’s worked well the last few days.
Just wondering what others here regard as there tension indicator?
Hi Adam, Josh,
Met Adam on the DD forum, and have great trust in your integrity, thus, if you say this program works, I believe it. Glad I found you guys here. Josh, very impressive 40k BUP. I was elated at my 40k regular MP back in Nov 09. I look like an ant compared to you guys.
I’ve now watched Adams videos, also Frankie’s videos including “the big picture”. Want to make sure I’m understanding things rightly. I’m very interested in this, but I do have some questions as to how it would work for me specifically. I’m not asking for the “secrets to be revealed”. If my question is covered on the DVD, that’s cool. If it’s not on the DVD and you can just explain something, that’s fine too.
Here’s the scoop- I’m a hardcore kettlebeller, also doing some body weight work, some nail bending, also training for a KB competition in June. Reached a big goal of military pressing an 88lb kb each arm in November of 2009. Would like to solidify that gain.
I don’t have a training partner, so I guess I’d be testing using ROM in the toe touch.
Here are my questions-
If an exercise, such as mil press, consistently “tests bad”, say for a week, how does one ever get around to doing that exercise? Do I just force it in that case? I’d hate to lose strength for lack of being able to train that movement.
It seems like the test’s are determining the body’s comfort level with a particular movement. I noticed in the video that full body tension, bad position, pain, all make the test worse. Yet, I need full tension to make my heavy lifts. Does that mean I’d have to dial back my weights so that the body is comfortable? Did you find in the beginning that you had to cut your loads back to avoid the need for HTT?
Can this program work for someone with limited time? I only have about 45 minutes per day, 5-6 days per week, to exercise. Do the strength gains come from being able to get in more & more reps, as testing allows. I couldn’t go for 2 hours, even if my body let me, because of time constraints.
I tried a few different moves this weekend and seemed to find that the more moves I tried, the better my toe reach got (I slid my fingers down a ruler with eyes closed to measure improvement). I had to attribute it to my body warming up, rather than getting a definitive answer from my body as to what tested good/ bad. It’s tough for me to tell when I have reached the base level of tension in the toe touch test, in order to make the distance reached a true variable for measurement. Then yesterday, I baselined at 5″, then tested pullups, chinups, renegade row (26#, 53#, 70#) and they all tested the same (4″). I picked pullups and RR 53# and ran sets of 5. Tested between each set. Every test came back as 4″ (within margin of repeatability of probably 1/4″). Even though I was tiring by the end of 100 reps total (pu’s +RR), my test never changed. Is my body just stupid?
I really, really like the concept of letting my body tell me what’s good for it, what’s not good for it. I tend to drive on to make “numbers” no matter what the cost, sometimes at risk of injury. I’m 48, so this program sounds like what I need.
Sorry this is so long, but there is a lot to these methods, & I want to understand how it works and how I can implement it before I spend the money. Again, if you think everything I need to master this program is addressed in the DVD, I’ll just shut up & buy it. Will continue to test with the knowledge I’ve gained so far.
Thanks for your help with this,
Scott Allen (ScottA on DD forum)
Scott, great questions. I’ll be able to devote some time to a response later this afternoon. On the fly right now. Glad you’re here!
Scott, can you send me this in an email? I need to break it up in to chunks to better answer it, and i am not comfortable with the backend to type it out here.
Adam, should be in your inbox now. Thanks!
I’ve been working with Biofeed back for a few weeks now and have been making gains. The only problem is that the primary lifts Im trying to improve on (Regular stance DL: Rev & DOH grip, incline BB press, weighted pullup) never test the best so I havent done them since implementing Biofeedback 3 weeks ago. Most of my training has been unilateral since it always seems to test best. Has anyone else had this experience? Do I just keep testing and hope one day they will test the best?
To All,
During a workout, what metrics do you record regarding biofeedback? Do you record all movements, weights, reps tested (good and bad), exercises selected, baselines, test measurements between sets, etc?
I keep very detailed logs as to loads, sets, reps, rest periods, etc. It would be easy to get bogged down with too much info. At the same time, since this is pretty new (to me at least) and we all seem to be volunteer test subjects, I was just wondering what data would be useful to be able to review progress in, say, 3 months.
Seems like it could be useful to see if certain movements consistently tested bad for a period of time. If I only record the good tests, I won’t have as good a picture of what my body really doesn’t like. But this could lead to information overload. After all, I’m ultimately wanting to improve performance, not data-logging skills. ; {]}
ScottA
Scott, I am a data-geek too so I understand where you’re coming from. I have found that logging
movement, weight, sets, reps, and total time
Is all you really need. It’s irrelevant what your test measurement for DL was 3 weeks ago. All that matters is what tests well today. From those metrics you can derive density as well. Rest periods also don’t matter because as you will see, your density automatically increases and your rest periods contract. You don’t even have to think about doing it. Here’s me:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Apd5k3hjQ6N4dC0tZFZwQkVrVWk0MmlxMHVVay11R0E&hl=en
Hey David,
Nice spreadsheet. A question- for example, on 12-Feb with your sumo DL, did you just test at 135 or so, then move thru heavier weights because the movement tested well, or did you test each weight before using it? I do progressions like yours, at low reps, the test rep is almost part of the workout. Or, do you test the movement, then go by form/ feel to see when you’re getting near the end of good reps?
Up till now, I’ve been using a timer and operate typically on a 60 second interval (includes work and rest time). Last week I did 20 sets of Military presses, 70# kettlebell, 3L/ 3R. Doesn’t leave a lot of time for ROM testing between sets, but I could tell when my form was beginning to go south. I imagine as I progress with this program, I’ll begin to learn to intuitively read other signals from my body besides ROM alone.
I tested each weight as I went, but I was also hell-bent on pulling a new 1RM that day. That said, each and every weight up the scale tested well.
Last night was a better example where I pulled doubles of 395 until the first test came back slightly worse than all the ones before and I shut it down to leave some in the tank for other movements. (Then I ran out of time, damnit). And yes I count all the test reps since I am doing plenty of work on the way up. I want to have a conversation with Adam about this and if anything changes I’ll post again.
Personally, I wouldn’t use the timer. It sort of goes against the GM principal I think. Just time your total set time, and go by feel. Workout-by-workout your total time will either decrease, or your volume will go up. The problem I have with a timer is that you’re back to “programming”…how do you know when to reduce it to 50 seconds, or 45 seconds? Let your body tell you instead. My $2c.
Your $2c is worth at least $25c in my case! I agree that a gymboss or other timer can be a terrible task master, especially for a goal/ progress driven meat head like myself. I’m always pushing for less time, more volume, heavier weight, etc. Unfortunately I tend to listen to the timer and my ego more than my own body. I’m working on phasing out the timer (other than total time) while I evaluate this system. Old habits die hard…
Report on this evenings workout experiment.
Very interesting experiment with 2 identical MP workouts. 32kg kettlebell. 60 reps total each night.
Two weeks ago, used gymboss sets of 3R/ 3L then rest for the balance of the 60 second cycle I was using. Every 5 sets I’d rest for 2 minutes. Made 60 reps in 29:58 minutes, significant number of “dirty” reps near the end.
Tonight, used GM. No gymboss. (second half of last week was a back off, so I didn’t do this workout last week.) Tested the MP, tested 32k, then started with sets of 4 (instead of 3), using toe reach ROM to gauge recovery. Body really seemed to like sets of 4! Near the end I had to cut sets to 3 reps & finally to 2 reps, but I got the same 60 reps in 28:24 minutes, with only 3 or 4 dirty reps! It really did work! More good, masterful reps even with a 2 week lapse. Left shoulder was hurting before the workout, feels better now than it did before. Good stuff! Not even all that tired!
A few minutes later I carried my 25# “blob hex weight” for 30s each hand, and ROM decreased by a whole inch! About 45s later, good to go for another 25s per side, same 1″ ROM hit. This proves to me that the ROM test is a good global marker since carrying a 25# blob in a pinch grip should have little to do with the posterior chain and ROM, except thru the CNS.
Will report future experiments if you all find them helpful. I’m stoked!
ScottA
Scott, correct me if I’m wrong, but I bet you didn’t even feel like you were working very hard during your MP sets.
Absolutely report your future progress.
Surreal is more like it. I did ETK with the 32k for 18 months, never made it to 60 reps, much less the 75 reps to do all 5 ladders. And whenever I’d get close to that volume, I’d be mush for a week. The last few reps today were a little rough on my left side (partly due to major RC surgery back in 2004), but I could have prevented that if I had made my sets a bit shorter earlier on. Instead, I kept pushing to try to maintain 4 reps. Seems like the harder you push the envelop, the more recovery time you need, and the whole workout gets longer rather than shorter. Not to mention the “dirty” reps. I’ve heard it said before that “sometimes you have to screw something up before you begin to understand it.” Pretty much describes me, but I’m learning. Still, tonight, the 4 rep sets just kept coming and coming, and felt really good and under control for the most part. And even better, I didn’t feel like I had just fought a train and lost. Weird, but in a good way!
Very outstanding Scott!
Clarification- 4 rep sets described above = 4R + 4L.
Scott, i sent back a response to your message, check your email
Josh, do you think this stuff is largely psychological?
So far, in my experience, there’s nothing psychological about it, other than the psychological benefits of never being in pain and always making progress:) There are many different ways to test. Most are undeniable. I’ve been experimenting with my classes, which are usually full of skeptics (which I love!), and by the end of a session, they can’t argue with what they’re seeing or feeling. Thanks for the comment!
So tonight was my first offical trial of biofeedback. I’m working on developing a home routine, based largely on kb’s (just have a 16 kg for the moment) and bodyweight, and eventually other exercises from a friend’s silat classes (I’ve never been so sore…need to up my general fitness before I dig back into it, but damn it was fun), and swinging a bokken and other weapons (from another class…not sure how that’ll work with biofeedback, but I’ll cross that bridge later).
Anyway, right now I don’t have a lot of exercises lined up, so tonight I tested out three- kb swings, dead-cleans (cleaning from a dead lift, as I’m working getting the clean right and the swing messes me up at the moment), and squats. I used the toe-touch rom, and each test either stayed the same or increased it, so all three were in. Some questions from the test:
From the swings- 5 sets total before the rom decreased- I noticed the reps per set increased from the first to the second set by about 10 (15 to about 25), and a slight increase in the third before holding steady for the next two- It might have been a warm up effect, but I was wondering- if I feel tension in one set and stop, then on the next I feel good past that number, do I keep going, or just let it stop at the previous count? I have found that sometimes counting gets in the way of concentrating on form right now, since I’m keeping track of a lot (shoulders in? heels pressing? hips? etc, etc), and I wanted to try just going until I had tension and not worring about numbers for now (not permanently, i know I’ll need to start keeping up with my progress).
From the cleans (3sets of 8r/l)- left arm tested a decent bit better than the right, but the right was still at the baseline (tested each individually). I worked both arms (left felt significantly more coordinated) since it seems odd to just work on one, then checked rom after each set of r+l. If one tests better than the other, do you normally just work that side, or do both for balance?
Squats- 3×8. This one was interesting. I tested withough weight, and with (holding the kb in against the chest). The weight felt good, but tested a lot worse, and I also tried slight variation in foot width (tonight was slightly wider). No question on them, just was the most noticable change in rom.
I’m giving myself about two deep breaths before testing rom to release tension and have a base-state- yeah/nay? Or ‘does it work for me’? (yes, I think).
Chris – I’ve often found a point where reps increase. Sometimes I am doing doubles of pull-ups and all of a sudden I can do 3 or 4 easily. Go with it. This is where what we are doing truly shines.
If one side tests better than the other, find a way to make the worse side test better. Weight, stance, groove, movement etc. I actually posted a video on this on my youtube tonight: http://bit.ly/9351dJ
Have fun!
Hi Josh,
Question: Why would a movment not test well at the beginning of my workout
and then further into the workout it test well?
For example, for the last month I’ve tested grippers first every workout.
Not once have they tested well. Later on in the same workout grippers will
test well. What’s going on here? This is not the case every time but according to my
journal it’s been 5 out of 8.
I know there’s an explanation, I just don’t know what it is. Everything else
is starting to come together nicely after Adam answered some of my concerns
through an e-mail.
Thanks for any input!
Hi Joe, that is a very interesting question. My short answer–and hopefully Adam will chime in on this–is that we test because “best for each of us” is a constantly moving target. Even within the course of a workout things can change. The only thing I really concern myself with is that I don’t do a movement when it’s not testing well. If it tests badly and then suddenly seems to test well, that’s good news to me, provided I still want to do the movement.
Hopefully Adam will chime in here, I’d love to hear the answer as well. Thanks for the comment Joe. I’m thrilled that you’ve gotten some answers and are here.
My starting point with this question…It seems whatever we do the most will become the things we have to do. For example, Joe i am just guessing, but I imagine you have done for many years a “warm up” of some sort?
If there is a routine established, we may have to honor it until we can work to something better. I used to always have to “warm up” on my big pulls. It occured to me last year I get no warm up at all in front of a crowd, so i have to be able to “cold start” my lifts.
Now, I am able to pretty much do anything I can do without any level of prep. Wake me up in the dead of the night and I can pulverize a 5/16 stainless steel bar and go right back to sleep.
So Joe, experiment with reducing the amount of warm up, and see how this affects your testing. While the concept of warming up is often quoted as “proven” effective, we must remember these are cause and effect studies and nothing can be proven by cause and affect. Only in association will we find accurate data
Thank you Adam! Yes, you guessed correct. I have a warm-up I do
that has basically gone unchanged for the last 15 years.
I will do as you suggest and see (feel) what happens.
Like I said, everything else is great.
It feels so good to not have a schedule no more.
I’m now experimenting with testing on arm wrestling techniques.
It’s pretty amazing that a hook movement doesn’t test well for days
afterwards. Conclusion? Arm wrestling takes a lot longer to recover
from than normal weight training. I’ve known this for years but NOW
I have a way to test the amount of recovery needed. This is CRAZY good!
Joe
I think about the enormous amount of stres associated to arm wrestling and that makes a lot of sense. Tonight I will send you some additional training ideas to try out specific to AW
Thanks Adam! I would greatly appreciate that.
I will give you feedback on my results for sure.
This could change everything in my AW.
I haven’t been this excited in a long time.
Adam, what do you mean by “only in association will we find accurate data”?
Nearly all effective science experiments take the form of “cause and effect,” ie, with variables and a control. Only by doing so can we isolate and test causality.
Most scientists use “association” or correlation studies just as jumping-off points for actual causal testing.
Do you intentionally challenge that approach? If so, why?
It seems that the whole of biofeedback testing rests upon the “cause and effect” of movements and ROM. Please clear this up for me.
Brad
Short answer yes I do challenge causation. I am on my phone now when I get home tonight I will share more info
Cause and effect is not part of it, in fact the first lesson we teach is why cause and effect promises losses. It is the slowest way to learn anything and you are set up to always be wrong.
Association- understand the connections in events, with due regard to the black box and the many things which we cannot detect due to our limited senses.
A funny survey i read– “Study prove Sex feesl good” it was done in Holland (naturally) and the study “proved” the cause and effect relationship between sex and feeling good…wait a minute! Did the interview men and women who were prison raped as well? I am pretty sure if i panel a group of rape victims they will not tell me all sex feels good…So did we just disproved the holland study?
If you study your Gym movement practice from a point of cause and effect, you will always be wrong when you to understand. When viewed from association, you are never wrong, and there is always room for improvement
Ok, I think I understand that. You’re saying that “knowing” cause and effect implies a degree of certainty that we don’t actually have. We do a movement, ROM increases. We cannot be certain, however, that the movement *caused* the ROM increase, ony that they happen at the same time.
We can only report on what we did and what happened, any relationship between the two remains purely metaphysical, in the mind of the observer.
Brad
We can observe “what happened, than what happened, than what happened after what happened, happend”
Cause and effect- lifting weights in 5X5 program puts on mass. So why is it so many people fail to put on muscle? Than people say “they need to eat more” wait a minute- you just said lifting weights in a 5×5 puts on muscles, now you are saying there are additional factors?
So now my man eats more, still does not put on muscle. He asks whats wrong, and discloses he sleeps 3 hours a night
He is than told “You have to sleep to put on muscle too!”
Well, where are we at now? this guy is supposed to eat, lift, and sleep? But you told him 5×5 weight lifting will put on muscle?
This circle keeps turning over and over. cause and effect promises you will be wrong. it only takes 1 time to disprove something…
but with association, we do not have to be wrong.
Don’t know if this thread is still going. But I have a question. I am enamored with this whole Biofeedback thing. Completely consumed by it. I go to bed thinking about it, and wake up wondering what will test well today.
I’m just curious as to what people’s approach to conditioning is for biofeedback. Say that swings test well. You also find that the 24kg tests best, especially with 1H swings. Now, do you just swing until you feel the 1st sign of tension, terminate the set, wait for ROM to return, then repeat the process until you no longer can? Or do you, for conditioning purposes, just acknowledge the fact that it tested well, and really “go for it”? I guess one could decipher to one’s self on which days are best to go until tension, and which days are good to go all out and see where you stand.
Just curious on what some people’s take on Biofeedback towards conditioning is. One of my goals this year is to hit 100 snatches with the 24 in 5 minutes, 200 in 10 minutes. Just wondering which approach would be best, and what other people’s approaches are, and how they work for them. I guess I’ll just have to test it out. All very exciting, this journey into your body. Hope this thread is still getting some burn.
Jesse, a couple of weeks ago I was able to swing the 48 for 201 reps in ten minutes without even breaking a sweat. It wasn’t planned, it was just the right day for it. I’d been building up slowly and going deeper into the set each time the swing with the 48 tested well.
If you begin to feel tension, you are pulled out of alignment, your breathing pattern changes, and then you CAN’T correct any of those mistakes if you continue the set, it’s time to stop. If you can correct them on the fly, press on.
Once in a while I do test myself with an all-out effort at something, just because I want to. There is still value to testing/moving under stress, but those stress days take place for me about once every six weeks. If the majority of training takes place under eustress (the effortless state), there’s nothing wrong with the balls to the walls distress training session as a test. But the reality is that most people’s training focuses on distress and they rarely if ever train effortlessly.
There’s also a distinction that needs to be made: just because something looks easy doesn’t mean it feels easy. When Adam does those long cycle sets with heavy weights, they don’t feel easy. Adam has told me more than once that “the sensation on long cycle is always the same, and it’s never pleasant.” But he makes them look easy, and that is what leads to the productive state that allows for constant PRs.
Jesse -
Here are a couple more data points for you. Last fall at the TSC I did 86 reps with the 24kg. Last week the TSC snuck up on me and I did snatches with the 16kg 3 times and OA swings with the 32kg 2 times. That literally is the balance of the swings and snatches I did in 6 months. I did them in the week leading up to the TSC when they tested well. Also keep in mind that prior to last fall’s TSC the grand total of the number of snatches I have ever done probably numbers around 1000 (at most).
I did 100 reps with quite a significant bit of resting because my “cardio” wasn’t there.
Point being – these silly tests like 100 in 5m that seem hard become ridiculously easy when you just do what tests well.
Thank you gentlemen.
Josh, David,
When you all say “easy” and “effortless”, even though the weight may be heavy or the set may be long, I do have a bit of an idea what you’re saying. In ETK, on the ROP light days for pressing, Pavel even says that you’re not backing off the weight, just making the reps easy (fewer). “Heavy but easy”. I can dig it.
That being said, “easy” comes in a huge range, depending on the perspective. Lifting 5# over my head with one hand is pretty dang easy, but not likely much benefit. Going too far the other way, 88# is really hard, though I can get it if I “go after it”. Backing off just 4# – 8 #, I can do singles or doubles till I run out of time. Somewhere in between is the right load, depending on how it tests.
Since our body “intuition” is also a source of feedback, “perceived effort (P/E)” would also seem to be an ingredient in how much load, how many reps, etc. In general, is there a level of perceived effort that we are aiming for? There is still room for day to day variations depending on our state. A 7/10 P/E with 80# today might be a 10/10 on some other day if I didn’t get much sleep. But if I keep trying to find that 7/10 (or whatever number) for any given day, shouldn’t that keep me safely on the path?
Thanks for your willingness to help. If you have a chance to read my comment from 15-Apr and respond with your thoughts, I’d be very grateful.
Best, ScottA
Someone please tell me if I am understanding this correctly-
In GM/BF, it is the adaptation process by which we get stronger, more conditioned, etc, and the purpose of lifting the weight, running, whatever, is simply to provide the stimuli for the adaptation. I suspect I have still been trying to get stronger by direct means of heavier loads/ more reps, even though I am following the rules about testing, doing perfect reps, etc.
If this is indeed correct, then I can begin to understand why my progress has been less than stellar. Where most of you seem to make gains in “yards and meters”, my gains seem to be in “inches and millimeters”. Hardly “crushing it”.
I continue to test everything and question everything. But, in my quest for PR’s, I may be continuing to “push” instead of letting it “just happen”. On days that I go longer to “force” volume just to get a PR, my density goes down.
I’m happy for those of you making gains, yet a bit jealous, and pissed at my own stubborn body/ brain for not giving me the clear signals during testing that I need. On Tuesday, I tweaked my back doing DL’s on the third rep of the workout, using a weight that seemed to test well. Perceived effort was probably 7/ 10, heavy but not all that hard. I pulled 300# for an easy 2 reps just a couple of weeks before.
Last question is this- when testing loads, DL for example- if I test 205#/ ROM 27″; 245/ 28″; 255#/ 29.5″; 265#/ 29.5″, do I stay with 265# because it tested as well as 255#, or do I go back to 255# because 265# did not yield an improvement over 255#?
In light of my initial statement about adaptation, I’m thinking this may be the case, just looking for some confirmation whether I’m on the right track or not.
Maybe this will help someone else still working thru this great program-I am still impressed at the genius of it all. And please no one bust my balls here if I’m not understanding it correctly. I can say with confidence that no one is trying harder than I am to get this right.
Thanks,
ScottA
Hi Scott,
Personally when testing deadlifts, or any other lift, if two weights test the same I always go for the lighter of the two. I have done this because through trial and error I have found that the lighter one always gives me a good PR, heavier generally doesn’t.
We’re all different and you just have to keep experimenting.
I think you’re on the right track though, the more you just enjoy doing the movements and letting them happen the better the rewards. I have been enjoying doing lots of bodyweight work and its paid off on my heavy lifts… go figure!
We will all get there in the end, you have to remember that Adam has been doing this for a lot longer than us and I’m sure he went through the same situations as us. Thats why I am thankful he and other people are sharing their wisdom. This is becoming a really awesome community of like minded people!
Hey Kris,
Thanks for the reply! This protocol to me is like playing chess. 10 minutes to learn, a lifetime to master. Lots of nuances in the fine tuning to your own body and goals. I do experiment a lot with this, but if I can benefit from someone elses trial and error, why not do it? What you mention about using the last load that brings improvement makes sense (now). What that means to me is I’ll be loading up in smaller increments to find that sweet spot for the day. Driving on….
For deadlift I usually test a light, medium and heavy… currently that is 60kg, 80kg, 100kg… one of those will test the best (if deadlifts are testing well) then I’ll go blast out some reps.
If medium or heavy tests well then after several sets I may retest a heavier weight and see what happens… if progressively heavier keeps testing well I will most likely set a new max lift PR
Your usage may vary, but thats what I am currently doing.
Adam, when picking the right weight, should it be light like a feather? I’ve found out that heavier weights test well, too. But tension is a no-no, right?
Tomas,
Heavy is still heavy. Excess tension is what we want to avoid. When you’re pressing with your right, there is no reason why your left arm needs to be at maximum tension.
If it tests well, use it.
I don’t know if you misunderstood me, but I didn’t mean by “right weight” the weight used by the right arm, but the *correct* weight.
Tomas,
I think Dave was just stating that as an example of what he meant by “excess tension”.
Physics-wise, there MUST be tension in your body to counteract the weight. Tension itself is not a no-no. Tension that is not required to move is a no-no.
I don’t think weights need to feel light as a feather, I just think that the movement quality needs to feel high. I started thinking of it less as lifting the weight, more that I am moving through the range of movement and the weight is trying to stop me/throw me off. The more the weight is winning at that goal and altering the movement, the less appropriate that weight may be.
This is just my perception at this point; feel free to disregard if not applicable to you.
I agree with you!
Resistance that doesn’t get in our way. I’m still learning to use Biofeedback, I feel I’ve used too much weight up to this day. :p
UPDATE for you guys, especially Adam, Josh, Mike N. & Frankie F.
Okay, after being the biggest skeptic yet on biofeedback I now feel foolish.
There’s experiments and tests I should have done before drawing conclusions
as to the effectiveness of BF concepts.
After Adam and Mike Nelson got me lined out on my main concerns I started
over so to speak. I watched the 3 videos at least 3 times each and took careful
notes and paid close attention to what was actually being said and not what I thought
was being said. BTW, the 3 videos were Sacred Cows Vol. 1&2 and The Big Picture put
out by Frankie Fairies.
instead of trying to falsify (prove wrong) the concept I looked at what it had to offer
based on what was being claimed. Results? I’ve PR’d at certain grip movements that I
have not been able to achieve after years of grip training. For example, several years ago I just flat gave up on 1″ V-Bar lifting because I couldn’t get past 200lbs. no matter what. I got 201 lbs. left handed one time and was never able to do it again. CoC #3 gripper. I’ve been stuck at a little past parallel for years even after following what some of the TOP grip guys were suggesting. Middle Finger Lift. Never got past 100 lbs.
NOW, enter Perpetual Progress! 1″ V-Bar = 230 lbs. 30 lb. gain in under 5 weeks
CoC #3 gripper = Less than a quarter inch from shut. 1/4″ gain in under 5 weeks.
Middle finger Lift = 125 lbs. Right or Left. 28 lb. gain in under 5 weeks.
These are just max attempts. Reps per set and total sets have went through the roof.
Conclusion? IT WORKS!!! This is the part that I couldn’t get around even though I didn’t understand why it works. Other individuals I tested without telling them the
why’s of what I’m doing produced results also. They were unbiased in everyway. They had never heard of biofeedback, ever.
Now the important part. I would like to apologize to the above mentioned guys right here on this forum for causing such a rucuss and pissing people off. Never good! No one likes to admit they are wrong but I think it will make me a better perosn to admit my mistakes/errors and learn from it and move forward.
Sorry for such a long post but I had to get this off my chest.
My BEST WISHES to everyone!!!
Joe Musselwhite (Mighty Joe)
I only use my timers now for testing blocks. Gym boss is a good idea, only problem is a better idea has arrived.
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